Underground mishaps and other incidents...

cap n chris

Well-known member
Avoid an embarrassing death. Purchase an Omni. It's not only the future, it's the present.

omni_m.jpg


Veylerbull here:

http://www.thecavingandclimbingshop.com/epages/BT3421.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/BT3421/Products/PetzlOmni/SubProducts/petzlomni-0006
 

Amy

New member
Les W said:
cap 'n chris said:
If you drop a bag down a pitch by mistake isn't shouting "Rock" confusing and inappropriate, though?

I don't think it matters what you shout providing everybody knows what it means!

In the UK "Below" is the traditional shout, borrowed from the climbing community I think. Everybody knows what it means and that is the most important thing. As an international caver I also know that "Rock" means the same.

To be honest, if I am on or below a pitch and I hear anything being shouted, then I duck and try and make myself very small (quite an achievement for me... :tease:) better to look sillly than flat...
Yelling "ROCK!" no matter what doesn't really matter...if a pack or rock or anything else is falling from a height you'd not want to get hit regardless. Point is don't look up something's falling! We tend to use a lot of vocal commands around drops (on rope, off rope, "ok", on belay/belay on, off belay/belay off, on rappel...) ROCK is very distinctive in sound from these and projects well. Whereas something like "Below" might sound something like "rope" with the dominant "o" sounds in both them if you can't hear each other well. Needing a repeat for clarification if a rock (or something!) is falling is likely too late, and you'll tend to look up to try and see what the person at the lip is doing whereas ROCK you know /dont/ look up! But now I shall remember when over there that BELOW = ROCK!

Similar thread...do y'all use BO there? I just learned that one this weekend because we had to look for the pits and were spread out walking the ridge... "BO" is a call wanting a response of BO to just know where people are or tracking to a location. Two, "BO BO" means i'm coming to you. Three, "BO BO BO" means come to me. Apparently started from some people just messing around in a cave seeing what sounds carry well. BO! carried best. So for example, when someone found Dinky Pit, they shouted "BO BO BO!" so we all knew to head that way. On the way if we wanted to hear the sound again to follow we'd just shout BO back and forth. Explains one of my very first cave trips and our group got split up in a bit of a mazy section and a member started to yell BO until hearing a reply BO to follow. It's apparently pretty standard in the US I just didnt know until now!
 

Amy

New member

cap n chris

Well-known member
Your friend's one must have been a copy, a fake or a duff one, or it was stowed in acid or similar substance; I have many Omnis and have been using them for years and they get wet very frequently; never experienced any corrosion on any of them.

Eminently and completely trustworthy since it automatically self closes, unlike a good ol' halfround (as the above posts have clearly demonstrated).
 

Alex

Well-known member
So jelous, of the drought that is. Its pissing it down and bloody windy at the moment up here.

And Amy yes we have BO here but we have sprays for that. (or roll ons)

Finally I think shouting below is stupid, as it sounds too much like "hello" so you look up who is saying hello to you. I think we should change it to rock.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Amy said:
Yelling "ROCK!" no matter what doesn't really matter

Absolutely; so why the debate?

US: Rock
UK: Below
France: Pierre (it's a Bible thing)
Or just: Anything shouted loudly and urgently
 

Bob Smith

Member
Amy said:
Oooh that is interesting...so there "Below" is yelled, not "Rock"? That is good to know that difference in standard. Otherwise "Below" would just confuse me I might not pay attention to it. Here, "ROCK!" is yelled for anything falling (rock or otherwise, usually rocks of course, but holds for anything).

that could be confused with

"YOU ROCK!"

which is what we would shout after observing someone performing a spectacular underground manoeuvre.  ;)
 

Amy

New member
cap 'n chris said:
Your friend's one must have been a copy, a fake or a duff one, or it was stowed in acid or similar substance; I have many Omnis and have been using them for years and they get wet very frequently; never experienced any corrosion on any of them.

Eminently and completely trustworthy since it automatically self closes, unlike a good ol' halfround (as the above posts have clearly demonstrated).
from caving supply dealer here, it was left in the pack for a day or two where it was damp, but wouldn't think that would cause such a bad issue as it is the same treatment the halfround got. Anyway yeah, replacement gotten, just storing it indoors in dark cool dry places now. Was just odd to happen so quick for standard gear treatment everything gets (get home late, leave in [opened so air can get in/out] pack overnight or two until it's all cleaned up and set out to try).

a lot of folks here dont like autolocking as they've had troubles with the autolocking not working (goes for any 'biner not just omni, standard here is to not use autolock)

As to rock, s'no debate afaik, was just trying to answer your question as to why to use rock for meaning pack as well =) Just posting our reasoning for using the word to mean everything since reasoning was asked =)
 

ian.p

Active member
alkapitan:
several things firstly im just guessing but have you taught yourself SRT out of a book? i first started trying to prusic on loops like what id read in a book and prusicked up the 20ft pitch in swildons on a pair of bootlaces cos id read chris bonington did that once (on a mountain rather than swildons obviosly)  and i was fairly sure he was bigger than me so my bootlaces ought to take the weight thinking that was a fairly normal thing to do....neadles to say thats not the case... the trouble with learning things out of books is that theres no one there to tell you when youve mis understood somthing reading alpine caving techniques from cover to cover will unfourtunatly not make you a vertical caving god...

you realy do need to find someone who knows there stuff (and i mean actualy knows what theyre doing rather than the club armchair caver whos done alum pot a couple of times and never stops going on about there pantin) then hopefully they can help you sort your rig and technique out so its rather safer than yours sounds.

to debunk a couple of myths you apear to be living under:

there is no corect way round for your cows tails im fairly sure ive used mine in just about every oreintation and location on my D ring and i have never maniged to chop through my footloop.

Having the croll on your D ring is important for a number of reasons not just efficeancy it also insure the rope runs smoothly through the jammer, keeps you in closer to the rope making it easier to prusic and less likley you will end up topaling over. it should be more comfortable to have it atached directly onto your croll as on a another mailon its going to twist into your body you might as well use a normal jammer.

with regards to ataching your hand jammer with a maillon thats better than tying it in directly but a crab would be better if your going to use it as a third cowstail you might also want to consider having a crab to atach the safety cord to youre D ring as it makes life easier for someone to pick you of a rope if you get nocked out by a boulder.  and I strongly strongly sugest you concentrate on getting youre basic technique sorted out before you ever consider hauling anyone up anything youre more likley to get that person killed if you dont realy know what youre up to.

sory if that sounds a bit blunt but i hope it helps
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Amy said:
a lot of folks here dont like autolocking as they've had troubles with the autolocking not working (goes for any 'biner not just omni, standard here is to not use autolock)

The triact autolocking karabiners and triact autolocking Omni are not suited to muddy environments as it apparently does indeed cause problems with the functioning of the gate; however, the standard Omni "autolocks" in as far as it is a similar mechanism to a spring gate karabiner and hence closes automatically; the red "alert" collar shows that it requires manual fastening by turning the collar (again just like a screw gate karabiner); however, like karabiners generally, fastening the screw gate does not increase the load-bearing capacity of the Omni; it's as strong as it can be whether or not the collar is fastened (it's just less likely to be opened inadvertently if the collar is done up).

Hence my personal preference is for an Omni with a screw gate collar because (a) it closes automatically because it's got a spring loaded gate (b) it has a red alert collar colour reminding you to fasten the collar and (c) whether you turn the screw gate or not, it is as strong as its rated load-bearing tolerance (d) you don't need a spanner or five minutes of faffing to put/take your harness on/off with an Omni whereas the old style maillons occasionally made hopping out for a wee a mini-epic in their own right.

Put simply, you are not going to descend or ascend with your central D-maillon open and hence putting your life in jeopardy. Seems an excellent reason to purchase one, imo.
 

dunc

New member
cap 'n chris said:
Hence my personal preference is for an Omni with a screw gate collar because (a) it closes automatically because it's got a spring loaded gate (b) it has a red alert collar colour reminding you to fasten the collar and (c) whether you turn the screw gate or not, it is as strong as its rated load-bearing tolerance (d) you don't need a spanner or five minutes of faffing to put/take your harness on/off with an Omni whereas the old style maillons occasionally made hopping out for a wee a mini-epic in their own right.
I purchased a screwgate Omni a year or so back, having previously used D's for years, was a bit wary at first but now, not sure I'd go back to a D given the choice. Makes life easier, imo (definitely better when there's a need for taking gear off/putting on in some small snatchy little pothole) and as Chris says safer..
 

Alex

Well-known member
Never realised you used one Dunc, I will pick one up in Inglesport next time I am in then. (I am sure they sold them) and try it out.

Anyway lets get back on topic, I may post yet another one of mine on here but can't at the moment.
 

Joel Corrigan

New member
Hopefully incompetence isn't too contagious; this sort of thread is a particularly useful way to work out which individuals are best avoided in a cave & reckon we should all have passport-style photos next to our pseudonyms....!   
 

caving_fox

Active member
Afew things to post that have happened over the years. But before that a bit about the croll:

Having the croll on your D ring is important for a number of reasons not just efficeancy it also insure the rope runs smoothly through the jammer, keeps you in closer to the rope making it easier to prusic and less likley you will end up topaling over. it should be more comfortable to have it atached directly onto your croll as on a another mailon its going to twist into your body you might as well use a normal jammer

I too attach my croll to the d-ring with a maillon. It doesnt' twist - although it does require you to thread your chest strap correctly (ie it can twist with the chest strap threaded wrongly). For those of use with proportionally longer bodies having the croll slightly higher helps keep your torso more upright. Yes it reduces the prussic 'stroke' but this is countereacted by a more comfortable position. Having the cheat strap properly tight means that you are still completely close to the rope. I've tried it both ways when setting up my gear, and this is definetly the right option for me.


Scares: prussicking up and catching my croll handle with the knot on the handjammer's saftey cord. Croll pops open. Argh. flick back on rope, resume breathing. NO idea how it happened, only the once, on the exact same rig I've been using for years.

Falling - Cuallam 2 (I think) in Claire. bimble down with a few friends. Free climb the 10 m waterfall to the sump. It's an easy climb in low water, done it before, no bother. Climb back up. I'm last and just as I get my head over the lip I slip. No idea whether it was hands or foot, but just whump. Gone. (this is 10 m up remember) Fortunatelty for me the grab somethign reflex kicks in well. I've fallen maybe a foot or two and am wedged in a crack catching my breath. Frieds are really quite concerned, lot of shouting. It takes me a minute or two to reassure them that I'm fine and I'll climb that last metre in a bit. No injuries at all.

Dropping things - Diccon Pot, Friend is rigging I'm lying in the crawl. chatting to mates. Nothing special .... BANG .... silence. We start shouting! finally "f*** f*** f*** f***" starts echoing back up the shaft. Phew. Friend is OK. He'd swung out for the deviation grabbed the wall, and had part of it (" a on tonne flake") just peel away in his hand, which dropped some distance, quite noisally. Luckily no-one else was at the bottom. We retreated, Haven't been back, although I do want to at some stage. Friend doesn't.

Getting Lost - OFD. And this is really  :-[ I was leading, we'd had a good trip round Top, can't remember where, but had gone smoothly. Wasn't really concentrating on the exit, got to the main passage by Big Chamber, and decided this was Gnome instead (there are a few similar ish stals, honest) turned around and headed back into the cave. repeat. More than once. Finally I got myself sorted out. But spent at least 30mins no more than 100m from the easy exit, unable to find it.

Flooding - Otter. I'm sure this in a trip report on here somewhere. Over the tides trip, long and tiring. Got back to the sump to find instead of low tide ankle deep water it was nearly full and rising - 2" of airspace (ie well over 6 foot of water) as the first (guide) person arrived 0" by the time the last one got there! Fortunately we had time to climb through the Eyehole (maybe another two foot higher) and escape, damp but safe - it was still rising, and close to the bottom of the eyehole by the time I was through. It had started raining almost as soon as we went unground. Sump didn't re-open for another 3 weeks! Which would have been a long time to wait.

You live and learn. No Harm, no foul.


Makes you think though. I don't freeclimb so 'freely' anymore.
 
Another advantage of the omni type centre maillon is that you don't need dirty old men fiddling at your groin for 5 minutes trying to screw you up
 

Amy

New member
cap 'n chris said:
Amy said:
a lot of folks here dont like autolocking as they've had troubles with the autolocking not working (goes for any 'biner not just omni, standard here is to not use autolock)

The triact autolocking karabiners and triact autolocking Omni are not suited to muddy environments as it apparently does indeed cause problems with the functioning of the gate; however, the standard Omni "autolocks" in as far as it is a similar mechanism to a spring gate karabiner and hence closes automatically; the red "alert" collar shows that it requires manual fastening by turning the collar (again just like a screw gate karabiner); however, like karabiners generally, fastening the screw gate does not increase the load-bearing capacity of the Omni; it's as strong as it can be whether or not the collar is fastened (it's just less likely to be opened inadvertently if the collar is done up).

Hence my personal preference is for an Omni with a screw gate collar because (a) it closes automatically because it's got a spring loaded gate (b) it has a red alert collar colour reminding you to fasten the collar and (c) whether you turn the screw gate or not, it is as strong as its rated load-bearing tolerance (d) you don't need a spanner or five minutes of faffing to put/take your harness on/off with an Omni whereas the old style maillons occasionally made hopping out for a wee a mini-epic in their own right.

Put simply, you are not going to descend or ascend with your central D-maillon open and hence putting your life in jeopardy. Seems an excellent reason to purchase one, imo.
Ahhh okay you are using autolocking in a different term then. We call those screw gate collars simply "locking biners" and the ones that automatically lock it for you "autolock biners" the latter is what cavers here stay away from for the reasons you mention.

ogof addict said:
Another advantage of the omni type centre maillon is that you don't need dirty old men fiddling at your groin for 5 minutes trying to screw you up
'tis why I pick a hot caverguy to check my gear over :-[  :ang:
 

Les W

Active member
ogof addict said:
Another advantage of the omni type centre maillon is that you don't need dirty old men fiddling at your groin for 5 minutes trying to screw you up

There's quite a few dirty old men out there that don't see that as an advantage...  :doubt:
 

Andy Sparrow

Active member
caving_fox said:
Getting Lost - OFD. And this is really  :-[ I was leading, we'd had a good trip round Top, can't remember where, but had gone smoothly. Wasn't really concentrating on the exit, got to the main passage by Big Chamber, and decided this was Gnome instead (there are a few similar ish stals, honest) turned around and headed back into the cave. repeat. More than once. Finally I got myself sorted out. But spent at least 30mins no more than 100m from the easy exit, unable to find it.

What sort of incompetent idiot can possibly get lost so close to Top Entrance? 

Over to you, Mr Williams......
 

Les W

Active member
Andy Sparrow said:
What sort of incompetent idiot can possibly get lost so close to Top Entrance? 

Over to you, Mr Williams......

And Top Sink...

Believe it or not I was actually not going to mention your moments of being directionally challenged...  :bow:
 
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