Uninformed bigot!!!

[darkplaces]

The fact that this MP is a Christian

Kaufman is a Jew not a Christian.

Christian, Jew, hippy peace protester, all the same bible bashers who have nothing better to do and end up just helping the enemy. In this case by kindly providing hostages and holding the world to ransom.

As already pointed out accident rates underground are low so its wrong to make the sweeping generalization about 'potholers' - I hate that term.

In a place like goatchurch I dont see normal clothes a problem, a bit crap but not a safety issue, helmets are a must.

 

[kay]

I was moved to write to my MP (the site won't let you write to anybody else)

You're right, aren't you!! The official parliament site and most of the sites listing MPs suppress the email address and let you submit only if you enter a postcode which is in that member's constituency.

The following is published on the Guardian site:

Gerald Kaufman: Constituency

Contact numbers:
House of Commons (tel): 020 7219 5145
House of Commons (fax): 020 7219 6825
Constituency (tel): 0161 248 0073
Constituency (fax): 0161 248 0073

Addresses:
Constituency:
30 Sopwith Drive
Fallowfield
Manchester M14 7FE


But no email address. His constituency is Gorton (Manchester).

I note that the general parliament email format is surname followed by initial@parliament.uk, so kaufmang@parliament.uk might work - not all MPs have parliament email addresses though, so tlephoning or writing to him at the House of Commons might be the best bet.

 

[AndyF]

Christian, Jew, hippy peace protester, all the same bible bashers who have nothing better to do and end up just helping the enemy. In this case by kindly providing hostages and holding the world to ransom.

I'm not going to knock the guy. He was driven by convictions and belief that drove him to at least TRY to do something positive. Much more admirable than the actions of our politicians who have killed so many out there.

He wasn't helping the enemy either... Iraq's aren't my enemies, just because Blair and Bush tell me they are....

 

[darkplaces]

Some iraqi prople are enemys, insurgents, people who take hostages, behead them, lay roadside bombs and explode bombs in public places. Without proper protection he simply offered himself as a hostage allowing the enemy insurgents to give the peace protesters something to point and moan at. Detracting from the real job of weeding out the trouble makers and allowing good iraqi people live normal lives.

 

[cap n chris]

I think it might be wise for contributors to this thread to avoid being justifiably and accurately categorised by the thread's original title. Now that would be ironic, wouldn't it?

 

[AndyF]

Some iraqi prople are enemys, insurgents, people who take hostages, behead them, lay roadside bombs and explode bombs in public places. Without proper protection he simply offered himself as a hostage allowing the enemy insurgents to give the peace protesters something to point and moan at.

Just which are the "good" Iraq's...? The ones who support the Americans? The Government police forces torturing suspects in the new prisons? The ones taking bribes to award contracts to Western companies?

..or could it be people fighting an army of occupation? Destroying oil pipes to prevent the West getting their hands on their resources while they live in poverty....?

Detracting from the real job of weeding out the trouble makers and allowing good iraqi people live normal lives.

This just means arresting and/or killing people opposed to a Western imposed puppet government. The Americans decide who are the "troublemakers", do you trust their judgement? I don't ...

 

[Robert Scott]

I've just sent the following to my MP, a Mr Marsha Singh - Bradford West, using the WritetoThem link.

**********************
Dear Marsha Singh,

One of your colleagues, a Mr Gerald Kaufman, was asked on a BBC programme "Any Questions" about a Mr Norman Kember. He replied "He had been as irresponsible as potholers who go down caves and expect other people to risk their lives to get them out!"

As a caver/potholer I find this "off the cuff" response, offensive and inaccurate.

Should I get into severe difficulties then it will be other potholers who will get me out of my problem.

Would you bring my annoyance to Mr Kaufman's attention?

I'm not sure how Mr Kaufman will remedy the potential damage that he has done to caving/potholing, but I'd be interested to hear his excuse.

Would you be so kind as to let me know his response or, failing that, how best to contact him personally to discuss this further..

Yours sincerely,

Robert Scott
************************

Of course, if you wish to contact your MP about grabbing Mr Kaufmann warmly in the members' lobby, then you'll need to change the words a little since I'd bet that they just forward emails to each other.

 

[Robert Scott]

By the way, Mr Kaufman's exact phrase was "He's like somebody who goes potholing and then relies on others to risk their lives to save him from being foolish."

Help that helps

 

[rich]

Some iraqi prople are enemys, insurgents, people who take hostages, behead them, lay roadside bombs and explode bombs in public places. Without proper protection he simply offered himself as a hostage allowing the enemy insurgents to give the peace protesters something to point and moan at. Detracting from the real job of weeding out the trouble makers and allowing good iraqi people live normal lives.

So "exploding bombs in public places" makes someone your enemy does it? How does that leave the occupying forces who have exploded far more bombs in public places, including those directed at civilian areas?

I don't think what Kember did was necessarily a good idea, but he was pretty brave and I'm sure he would still have gone whether there was a possibility of rescue if he got kidnapped or not. And "allowing good Iraqi people to live normal lives" was surely what he was campaigning for. It might not have been the best way of doing it, but it couldn't have been less effective than killing a couple of hundred thousand of them like the US and UK governments.

Sorry, this is well past any relevance to caving, but I couldn't let such an ignorant comment pass.

 

[Pitlamp]

Darkplaces - a lot of your posting of 8-42 on 26th March is moderately offensive and also factually incorrect. If you are concerned about the image of cavers in public, please consider your postings a bit more carefully before hitting "submit".

Not sure why you hate the term "potholer" - maybe you don't come from the land of potholes up north.

 

[darkplaces]

Darkplaces - a lot of your posting of 8-42 on 26th March is moderately offensive and also factually incorrect. If you are concerned about the image of cavers in public, please consider your postings a bit more carefully before hitting "submit".

Not sure why you hate the term "potholer" - maybe you don't come from the land of potholes up north.

pitlamp, cavers are people too with views differant to your own not automaticly wrong. The twisted half truths we are fed by the media and further twisted by people with personal agendas means you cant be sure.

Bible bashers, when it changes from the personal to the public is when they become offensive to me.

I dont like the term potholer because its the automatic word everyone else uses, 'I go underground' oh your a potholer, 'no, I go underground....' thats all, just a dislike for a word to make it clear a differance exists. Also no I dont come from the land of potholes up north.

 

[badger]

great debate but all this proves is we have a different view on the Iraq war, which was not the topic of the thread.
Any person going to Iraq whether it is to work or help Iraq's affected by the war must know of the risk's involved and therefore make an informed decision based on those fact's. This is the same going underground, albeit as a caver, potholer or miner, you evaluate the risk. No one going to Iraq want's to end up hostage or dead the same as no one going underground wants to end up injured and having to be rescued therefore putting the lives of other people at risk. In an ideal world no one would ever have to be rescued, the world could live in peace. Unfortunately we do not live in an ideal world, there will always be situations where people will need to be rescued because of the unforseen risk's or even seen risk's which on most days you cover then there's the one time you don't.
as for the thread Politicians will always come out with ill advised comments, instead of his comment kaufman may well have been better to commend the proffessionlism of our armed force's in Iraq (whether we should be there or not ) and the proffessionlism of our cave rescue service's when they called upon to help, and lets not forget they also help rescue in other arena's than just underground

 

[gus horsley]

Politicians make a career out of talking complete bollocks so I can't see why Kaufman should be any different. I can talk total crap as well but nobody pays me for it. Perhaps I've missed my calling?

 

[Billy Butcombe]

As I understand it Mr Fell is not a Nazi - he is, I believe an un - reconstructed neo socialist revolutionary !

 

[cap n chris]

Aha!,... a confused and misguided failed nazi :wink:

 

[AndyF]

I think we should invite Kaufman to go "caving" (sorry - potholing ).

Then he can learn a bit before spouting off....

 

[AndyF]

I wonder if his comments extend to those involved at Manchester Hole recently...

Isn't potholing on the school outdoor pursuits curriculum...?

 

[Brains]

Did not some MP a few years ago want to charge for rescue and started trying to put a bill through? I am sure he was taken caving by politically (small P) aware members of the CRO and made aware of the reality of the situation, such that his bill was dropped?
Cant recall the details at present, but I am sure there are some peeps out there who do.
Perhaps taking GK underground in a suitable environment for an old codger like him and showing him what it can be all about and how much is to be had would be a better way forward?

 

[cap n chris]

It was some decades ago and the write up is in Race Against Time IIRC.

It was a precursor of the standard knee-jerk reaction whenever there's a news item about someone being rescued from a mountain top by helicopter, costing £x,000 per hour and everyone writes in complaining that the rescued idiot should be charged for the cost of the fuel etc..

 

[Brains]

Thanks for the reference - knew I had it somewhere!
John Watson MP for Skipton, in 1982.
It is mentioned in Race Against Time on pages 135-137 and there is a picture as well on p181
So, what would be a suitable venue for him? How old is he, how able bodied, and how open minded?