Use of a belay for decending

[darkplaces]

My pretzl STOP doesnt.. For some reasons it doesnt grip at all, its only been a year or so but could it be worn already? I'v only used it for training mostly and a few underground decents.

I'v seen others using a belay device to decend and swear by them. I have tried (on short drops so far) a Black diamond ATC XP Belay.

http://www.gear-zone.co.uk/eshop/Black-Diamond-ATC-XP-Belay-Device.html

I'm rather impressed, even at just 20ft the device give lots of grip. Of course I cant let go. It gives a lot of control and I could I guess pop the tail of the rope in my chest acender if I need to hang about with both hands free.

Whats other peoples impressions, is this used by others regular or frowned apon for its non-backup-ness. Do thers use it with other kit to provide a backup?

Thanks

 

[Stu]

For short, one off descents, and if you don't mind that it'll probably wear pretty quickly when ran with a clagged up caving rope, I'm sure it will be fine. Think you've come upon a solution looking for a problem with the chest jammer bit though. It's easy to lock off.






or.... stop being a tight wad and fork out for new bobbins! Or better still get the thing cleaned and greased. A year isn't a long time with the use you describe.

Most caving kit has evolved and been developed for some pretty harsh conditions. It's not by accident that an essentially climbers piece of kit hasn't caught on.

 

[darkplaces]

Think you've come upon a solution looking for a problem with the chest jammer bit though. It's easy to lock off.

What do you mean, wrap it round me legs? :roll: but i'm scared. Maybe a good clean and some wd40 on my stop and it will be all better.

Thanks

 

[Stu]

You don't need to wrap it around your leg (though it does work). Pass a loop of rope through the krab, take it back above the belay device then a couple of half hitches will do the job admirably...but I doubt I've explained it well enough. Get someone to show you.

 

[paul]

I have a Petzl Stop I bought in the 80's and used for regularly at least a dozen years at home and abroad. It shows some wear on the lower capstan (bobbin) but still perfectly alright (and I weigh 100kg / 15 stones at 6 foot 4). I used to find that on some ropes it would creep slowly downwards when the handle was released but this can be prevented by either taking the rope once from the braking krab (always use one!) over the top of the Stop (a soft-lock) or by pushing up on the handle.

Nowadays I prefer the "Simple" or "Bobbin" as it is smoother in descent and leaves a hand free during descent and swapped to using that about 5 years ago.

One point to bear in mind: any descender you decide to use, make sure it doen't a) twist the rope (e.g. figure of eight) and b) remains always attached to your harness even when loading with rope. The last thing you need at the top of a pitch is to drop the descender...

Perhaps instead of spending cash on various bits of kit you could instead stick with the Stop and sign up for a bit of training instead - only a suggestion.

 

[Mine Explorer]

My pretzl STOP doesnt.. For some reasons it doesnt grip at all, its only been a year or so but could it be worn already? I'v only used it for training mostly and a few underground decents....

Have a look at the bottom bobbin, a short way in from the edge you'll see a circular peg - how much of that is exposed? It starts off life totally flush and a fair way back from the edge. My old stop has that whole corner worn away, my new stop is well on it's way!

What rope are you using it with?
Is it soft & supple, or stiff?
Is it 10mm?

Even when the stop was new I found 10mm rope would creep through, and when I squeeze the handle in there ain't too much friction on offer. Our club ropes are 11mm, these work in the stop no probs and the rope doesn't seem to creep. One problem is that because the stop wears to an 11mm profile, get on 10mm rope and there's even less friction
:shock:

If you're looking for an alternative to the stop try the rack. You can adjust the spacing and number of bars so your descent can vary from having to lift and force the rope, right through to almost free-fall. It takes a bit more practice to do change-overs with a rack 'cos they're that be longer than a stop, but they do give a smooth descent. To lock it off you end up doing the cats-cradle passing the tailend through krabs and over descenders. Always check the rack is loaded correctly before removing cows-tails - if you get it back-to-front the rope will ping out when you load it. Don't worry, have a fiddle with it and you'll see why, it's fairly obvious how to avoid it... but that doesn't offer much comfort when you're bouncing off the rocks because you didn't double-check!


Mine X.

 

[darkplaces]

What rope are you using it with: Semi-static
Is it soft & supple, or stiff? - I'd say stiff
Is it 10mm? - er yeah.

The bobbin with the insert, the insert seams worn slightly flat on one side.

So it seams people are happy decending without auto lock (bobbin, rack). So dropping down on my belay would not raise eye-brows in regards to safety. I just keep hold of the rope. Reading climbing webpages they recomend a prusik loop attached above the belay.

One Handy thing for the bobbin and STOP would be the ability to buy differant sized bobbins (replacing the top fixed one for example) for various sizes of rope and friction. Anyone heard if this is done? I know you can buy the bits to replace.

The STOP has always felt flimsy to me and I liked the belay as it was tough and simple. A few times getting over the edge is hard and a few times I thought the stop is going to bend.

Training - hmm. The problem for me is getting over the edge.

 

[MSD]

Is the spring inside the bottom bobbin OK? Check this by pressing the handle when there is no rope in. The handle should spring back out smartly. The spring is essential for the device to lock properly, especially at low speeds, or if you unweight the rope temporarily (just the sort of situations experienced when struggling over an awkward pitchhead).

If it doesn't spring back out smartly, either the spring is broken or there is something jamming the bottom bobbin, e.g. mud. In either case a strip-down is needed. Make sure you do the bolts up to a sensible torque when reassambling!

The climbing belay device you mention uses the karabiner as an integral part of the friction. You can expect to wear out the karabiner pretty fast unless you use a steel one. I would also expect that the device itself will wear out much faster than a Stop (which has a stainless lower capstan and a stainless insert in the upper). I would also be a bit worried about how hot it could get on a really long abseil. It has a small mass and a relatively small surface area to dissipate heat. Glazing the sheath of a rope is a good way to completely shag it.

Mark

 

[Mine Explorer]

What rope are you using it with: Semi-static

I assumed that - was really thinking about make, some makes are softer than others

Is it soft & supple, or stiff? - I'd say stiff

That should work in your favour, soft rope tends to be fast

Is it 10mm? - er yeah.

Not such a silly question - our club ropes are all 11mm. Stamped on the side it says the stop can be used with rope from something like 9 to 12mm (their website says 10 to 11mm for work & rescue, 9-12 for other use). The 'stop' function tends not to work with thin rope.

As I mentioned, personally I usually find 10mm rope creeps through my stop (even when new). If you're using a new soft 10mm rope I wouldn't be too suprised if you found the 'stop' function didn't work very well - I've even met some 10mm rope where I've been able to smoothly abseil down without even touching the red handle!!! (OK on that occasion my stop was slightly worn - but not THAT badly)

If you were using a new(ish) soft 10mm rope I wouldn't be too worried if it doesn't 'stop' you. If you're using a stiff 11mm rope then it might be of more concern.

The bobbin with the insert, the insert seams worn slightly flat on one side.

It sounds as if it's hardly got any wear. Both of my bobbins have had the original Petzl rope groove totally worn away and the corner with the peg insert has totally worn round, wearing half that peg away - the 'stop' facility still works. In comparison yours sounds like new!

So dropping down on my belay would not raise eye-brows in regards to safety.

Wouldn't raise eyebrows from safety (based on non-autolock) - just from being 'different to normal caving practice'

Reading climbing webpages they recomend a prusik loop attached above the belay.

Climbers also use prusik loops to climb up ropes - I'd recommend hand & chest jammers as a far better alternative. If you want to have a second 'back-up' can I suggest you look at the Petzl Shunt this is designed for that type of application.

...A few times getting over the edge is hard and a few times I thought the stop is going to bend.

Best to stand on edge and pivot over 'til you're horizontal (thus stop isn't near edge) or if that's a bit too nerve racking, do it on your knees (whilst praying?). In really small tight confined holes you sometimes don't get much choice, but I'd say it's best not to put your full weight on the stop with it pivotted across an edge.

Training - hmm. The problem for me is getting over the edge.

Take the leap! (I would hope) You'll get to try a range of different descenders without having to buy them yourself, you'll also get shown how to use them properly and any possible problems to avoid (such as loading a rack backwards, press the red handle whilst holding your cows-tail etc. etc.)

 

[SamT]

Please please please - Stick with a stop.

there are hundreds nay thousands of cavers happily using stops, all of varying age, wear, all on varying thickness and stiffness of rope.

It sounds like you just need to learn to use a stop properly.

Do you use a braking krab. If not why not.
Do you know how to do a soft and hard lock. If not why not.

Using a piece of equipment that has been designed for belaying climbers and lowering them off if they fall off, for caving purposes is just silly.

A - it will wear out very quickly.
B - its not easy to lock off (essential for many caving needs)
C - its too easy to drop down the pitch possibly rendering stranded - (but then of course you'd use an italian hitch or improvised Krab descender)
D - it'll be no good for dissipating heat build up knackering your rope
E - it'll twist the rope more that a stop
F - it'll not stop you if your knocked unconsious mid pitch
G - its piss all use in a rescue/emergency situation.........
I could go on

SRT is standard for number of reasons. If I come across a party in trouble and that needs help. Im expecting them to have standard kit that I can then put to use to effect a quick rescue. I dont want to find some idiot dying of hypothermia under a waterfall because the're hung up on the rope due to some idiotic "belay device clipped through chest ascender" tangled nightmare.

If your scared of going over the edge (many of us are) then it dont matter a jot if you use a stop or belay device - you'll still be scared of the 'exposure'.

Sounds like you need to read a couple of books - I'd recommend "Alpine Caving Techniques", "Caving Practice and Equipment" by David Judson and of course our own Andy Sparrows "the complete caving manual"

Im sure andy will comment on this topic too

 

[paul]

So it seams people are happy decending without auto lock (bobbin, rack). So dropping down on my belay would not raise eye-brows in regards to safety. I just keep hold of the rope. Reading climbing webpages they recomend a prusik loop attached above the belay.

It is possible to use a non-autolock descender safely - it's just that if you let go of the controlling rope or get knocked-out you haven't got that extra bit of safety an auto-locking descender supplies.

Using your "belay" (I presume the belaying device you had a link to in your original message) would raise YOUR eyebrows if you were to drop it while hanging at a re-belay! It is a sticht-plate based device (rope loop passes through the device and around a karabiner) and needs to be loaded carefully so that the retaining loop doesn't slip off the karabiner. The retaining loop is there really to stop the device slipping away from you while belaying (which is waht it was really designed for with occasional use as a descender), when the rope passing through the device is parallel to itself. You could lock it off by tying a knot with the controlling rope to the rope above the device.

You can also use a prusik loop to provide an auto-lock - I was taught to do this (in rock climbing) by tying a French Prusik around the controlling rope below the device and clipping a Krab passed through the Prusik Loop to the leg-loop of the harness on the same side as the controlling hand. Maintaining a normal grip on the rope while holding onto the Prusik Loop allows you to descend while letting go will immediately stop you.

Overall, in caving situations I think descenders specifically designed for the job will be better.

One Handy thing for the bobbin and STOP would be the ability to buy differant sized bobbins (replacing the top fixed one for example) for various sizes of rope and friction. Anyone heard if this is done? I know you can buy the bits to replace.

No - you can only get direct replacements of the same size. You get second-hand, very, very lightly used Stops from Caving Supplies for about the same price as a replacement for the lower bobbin with the handle (~ £25).

There is also an <a href="http://www.cavetalk.com/bulletin/viewtopic.php?t=19">Austrailan descender</a> similar to the Stop which is meant to have better friction control depending on how much the handle is depressed plu a longer handle providing more leverage. I have no experience of this and imagine it would be very pricey.

The STOP has always felt flimsy to me and I liked the belay as it was tough and simple. A few times getting over the edge is hard and a few times I thought the stop is going to bend.

They're not as flimsy as they look - the Simple (or Bobbin) I use looks even more flimsy but has lasted 6 years or so of very regular use including flat-out crawls withit dragging underneath, being scraped down the Crabwalk in Giants Hole inumeable times plus the usual rigours of SRT. Its a bit scratched, a lot of the red anodising has worn away but it isn't even slightly bent!

Training - hmm. The problem for me is getting over the edge.

Practice will help with that! Try and not sit on the edge at the top of pitches and sort of "scrape" over the edge. Try and use you feet as part of a sideways tripod with the rope under tension as the uppermost leg of the tripod and set off over the edge fully in control.

 

[darkplaces]

OK Ok I give in I'll keep to the stop, its a lovley device, just looks a bit flimsy. I think I need to point this thread at someone else who seams (not from my advise) to have taken a liking to a belay decent....

Do you use a braking krab. - Yes I do...
Do you know how to do a soft and hard lock. Yes I do
I can even transfer while wearing an S10 resporator...

Currently reading Andys "the complete caving manual" after spotting it at a friends house in cumbria (does he get money for introducing it to me?)

I'v spent plenty of time training (playing on the local bridge) in my SRT kit practicing stuff as idiots walk by saying "I could free climb that whats he doing".

"belay device clipped through chest ascender" tangled nightmare.

eh what a stupid idea, who thought of that one

So I am very much thankfull for all the advise from everyone. Just worry when I stop cuz that means I'm dead or something.

 

[Mine Explorer]

Please please please - Stick with a stop.

...or a rack!

A - it will wear out very quickly.

Racks take a while to wear out, bars can easily be replaced when they do.

B - its not easy to lock off (essential for many caving needs)

OK, can't beat a stop for locking off - but a rack isn't too difficult

C - its too easy to drop down the pitch

A rack isn't detached from the harness either

D - it'll be no good for dissipating heat build up knackering your rope

A rack is much better than a stop for this.

E - it'll twist the rope more that a stop

A rack doesn't twist the rope either (and is much easier to use on pull-throughs)

F - it'll not stop you if your knocked unconsious mid pitch

If you have the bars adjusted correctly you'll continue your descent at a controlled rate even though you're unconcious - thus avoiding health issues through hanging in a harness for an hour. Granted, not many people adjust their rack bars like this! You could also adjust the bars so you have to lift the weight of the rope to descend - ie. let go and you tend to stop (certainly not as safe as the auto-lock function though)


I think the stop is the most commonly used descender, but don't disregard the rack out-of-hand. Try it and see if you prefer it, there are many applications where it can be more use than a stop (eg. gives a free hand for negotiating awkward pitches, easier to do pull-throughs). Although it doesn't have the auto-lock feature, neither does it give the free-fall situation a figure of 8 would.

The stop does have the benefit that it can be used as a chest jammer if necessary, and it can be used in 'Z' rigs for hauling. No other descender can be used for this. The stop is easier for doing change-overs in mid pitch because it's shorter than a rack, also it's quicker to thread than a rack (who's in a race). It might not be "trendy" and "popular", but give the rack a chance, it's certainly more appropriate than the many devices used by climbers.

 

[SamT]

Racks are good too - I agree - I have a couple. Use them when I know Im gonna be doing some big pitches with few re-belays - eg Titan - Eldon hole - Alum pot. They are better for heat dissipation than a stop - but I still have to think thrice about whether or not Ive threaded it backwards - it still un-nerves me the thought of doing that.

 

[Dave H]

For what it's worth, this is what I use.

CS Rack for large pitches and pull-throughs.
Petzl Stop regular pitches.
Petzl Bobbin for tight pitches.

 

[darkplaces]

I took my stop apart and lost the spring. :| well I wasnt happy with it anyway i'v gone and brought a new one from bat products. brought a copy of decent. ooo a Nova3.

Cheers guys, I'm gona stick with the stop. I like the idea of less wear on the rope, standard rescue etc.

 

[Stu]

We knew we'd make sense!!

 

[dunc]

We knew we'd make sense!!

That'll be a first then!

 

[cucc Paul]

I don't like stops either but theyre the best thing for general purpose at the moment so until some one designs something better I'm sticking with it...

Stops are also versatile good for setting up zip lines and such in the park (don't tell the warden)

Hauling cause they will progressivly capture the rope but can also then be used as a running belay device to lower what ever your hauling if you need to...

I've heard of climbers using them as belay devices.... I'm not to sure about this though...

Using them as a chest jammer although possible it aint half hard work... occational up shity street use only i would have thought...

 

[sidewinder]

I am scared of hights and until recently used a stop.
I have changed over to a simple because I can hold the control rope with both hands which gives me more confidence. I have also started using a new crab to conect my simple to my harness. The new crab consists of crab and breaking crab combined (made by petzel but can't remember it's name). the increased friction from the new crab and the fact I can hold the control rope with both hands has enabled me to beat my fear of height.
I recently did titan without praying or swearing once.

You can also turn the bobins over when they are worn and get twice as much use from them instead of replacing them.