Water in Stoney
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pwhole
Well-known member
Woohoo! Just got back. It's still open, though we all agreed that it may have risen an inch or so since the weekend. We did Flowerpot entrance - Dynamite Series, and then out through the sump and the resurgence entrance/exit. Had a quick look at Rift Sump before entering the mined level, as I've never seen it before either.
I reckon you should be OK on Friday, if it doesn't rain too much more, but it could go soon if it pisses it down. The mined level is hilarious though, and it's worth doing just for the wallowing and globby sounds...
I reckon you should be OK on Friday, if it doesn't rain too much more, but it could go soon if it pisses it down. The mined level is hilarious though, and it's worth doing just for the wallowing and globby sounds...
martinb
Member
Had a wallow into Carlswark last night.
Checked Resurgence Sump, but it looks as though it may now be sumped just beyond the climb up to Eyam Passage.
Went back up to Gin and pootled off to Big Dig, Lower Streamway and up to Bed Pan Sump. Very little water all the way, only the little inlet on the left was flowing (where does that water come from?)
Bed Pan Sump was looked at - however the large quantity of mud put MarkC off, whereas I sat back at a respectable distance! :blink:
Checked Resurgence Sump, but it looks as though it may now be sumped just beyond the climb up to Eyam Passage.
Went back up to Gin and pootled off to Big Dig, Lower Streamway and up to Bed Pan Sump. Very little water all the way, only the little inlet on the left was flowing (where does that water come from?)
Bed Pan Sump was looked at - however the large quantity of mud put MarkC off, whereas I sat back at a respectable distance! :blink:
martinb
Member
SamT said:God forbid he was disturbing ancient sediments -
Doubt it as the mud put him off! BTW there was a strong smell of diesel close to Bedpan Sump, I assume it was trapped hydrocarbons in the silt of the streamway. It was strongest about the point where there is a small aven just upstream of the sump.
There was also a noticeable draught at Big Dig draughting upwards into the (blocked) shaft.
martinm
New member
SamT said:God forbid he was disturbing ancient sediments -
If they're in an active streamway like that they're not gonna be that ancient are they...
I do wish people would stop making fun of the fact that some people want to preserve stuff for scientific examination and/or future generations of cavers to enjoy!
Mark
Well-known member
There is nothing wrong with preserving stuff for future generations, but get a grip about this precious mud.
Most of the stuff in Carlswark, particularly the Merlin/Big dig streamway is a fairly recent deposit consisting of diesel and fine tailings.
Most of the deposits which were of any scientific interest in Carlswark have been mopped up by the clothes of passing school parties.
The recent opening of a route through to Merlins, (which has been known about since Gimli's Dream was first discovered) has done nothing to preserve the classic sediments in this bit of cave. The original route through was sealed to discourage through trips after only a couple of months due to serious damage to the formations.
I might be wrong but I believe the same people who are so protective of the mud are the ones that opened this new route.
Do you really care about caves?
Most of the stuff in Carlswark, particularly the Merlin/Big dig streamway is a fairly recent deposit consisting of diesel and fine tailings.
Most of the deposits which were of any scientific interest in Carlswark have been mopped up by the clothes of passing school parties.
The recent opening of a route through to Merlins, (which has been known about since Gimli's Dream was first discovered) has done nothing to preserve the classic sediments in this bit of cave. The original route through was sealed to discourage through trips after only a couple of months due to serious damage to the formations.
I might be wrong but I believe the same people who are so protective of the mud are the ones that opened this new route.
Do you really care about caves?
Mark said:
It is true that much of the sediment in the Streaks>Nickergrove>Merlin>Lower Streamway drainage route have been reworked and contaminated with taillings from workings at Cavendish Mill. Nevertheless the sediments are still valuable as they may be useful for understanding changes in the flow regime, which as you know has been complicated by sough drainage. Unfortunately they are less valuable when they have been disturbed by cavers.
Mark said:
There has been a great deal of damage done to the sediment deposits in the 'dry' passage such as the Eyam Passage. However to say that most of the deposits of any scientific interest have been lost is an over statement, and is not really for you to say. The sediments certainly have lost value, but they do still exist, and may be useful to science in the future. We don't know what geologists may want to investigate in the future, nor what techniques for analysis will be developed, but they should not be written off because you don't appreciate their value.
Mark said:
I would argue that no part of a cave should be concreted closed, and although your intentions were good, that this was in vain as most of the fine formations had already been trashed. Members of Chesterfield CC have recently taped off some of these formations, and have begun cleaning and restoring them, which should have been done years ago. We accept that Gimlis Dream will never look like it did when John Beck discovered in 1973 it, but our hope is to at least make some cave that can be enjoyed once again. Surely you can agree with me on that? In fact the speleothems are protecting the important sediments underneath, so there is another reason for protecting this important cave. We are waiting for a supply of water from the Merlin Streamway before continuing with this, as water supply is a problem at the moment. If anyone is interested in helping do get in touch.
Mark said:
I wouldn't have spent a lot of my spare time over the past 4 years working on the SMD audit if I didn't care about the caves. I wouldn't have filled a skip with old dig rubbish from carlswark and other caves in SMD, cleared the road drainage out of hungerhill, undertaken emergency shawing on big dig, replaced the rotting red and white tape in hangover hole with the proper DCA stuff, replaced a load of danderous hand lines, repaired the timbered shaft in nickergrove and undertaken SSSI monitoring for the DCA/Natural England if I didn't care about the caves.
I hope you will all understand that I complain about abuses of the caves in SMD because myself and others work so hard to manage them. This work is thankless and all we would hope for in return is a bit of respect from other cavers. The auidt will be published soon, which will provide information on the state of the caves, and suggest ways we can all work together to manage and protect them. There is still an opportunity for anyone interested to review and comment on the audit if you want to, just PM me with an email address and I add you to the circulation list. Please though don't personally have a go at me on this forum, as I mean no harm; as well as a professional Environmental Scientist I am a caver too
MarkC
martinb
Member
Mark said:
As Mark C put it, especially the stuff past Big Dig.
Not many, if any school parties go beyond Noughts and Crosses or North West Passage, so some sediments beyond Big Dig can be interesting.
Wrong. Gimli's was well trashed BEFORE the route was closed arbritarily. The new connection, which is not the original reopened, is very tight and awkward. Any group leader would hopefully think twice before taking a group through.
And I am one of those giving up my time to clean formations in Gimli's.
Mark
Well-known member
SamT said:God forbid he was disturbing ancient sediments -
For the people who are wondering how a discussion on water in Stoney Middleton turns into a discussion on sediments.
Sam's comment above refers to an email sent to various clubs about initials being drawn in the mud in Merlins Mine and the destruction of ancient sediments
I applaud the efforts of Mark C and Martin B in there clean up efforts, but I do think conservation can be taken too far.
Where do we draw the line
Excavating the ancient sediments and removing tons of rock from passages around the Peak has produced fantastic results
White River
Convenience Cave
Sidetrack
Titan
Lots of stuff in Stoney
Bagshawe Cavern
Gautries
Water Icicle
Lathkill Head
Calesdale
The list is endless
Is this justified? because on the other hand lots of ancient sediments have been removed from passages that don't go anywhere.
I really don't think writing in the mud is any worse than leaving footprints.
MarkC said:
I stabilise cliffs and tunnels for a living but it doesn't give me the right to preach to others how dangerous it is to poke rocks with a crowbar from beneath.
Mark said:
I was going to keep this as a private matter for the respective clubs, but as I have been misrepresented again, here is the email in full. You can make your own mind up whether you think this sort of behavior is appropriate in a SSSI. Given the high degree of 'nibbling loss' that affects the caves of SMD, I myself think it completely inappropriate. I 'preach' because damage to the caves of SMD affects me and the work that I doing on the SMD audut. What is more as an Associate of the institute of Environmental Management and Assessment I have signed a code of practice which means I cant 't just turn a blind eye. Why can't we all just enjoy the caves, and leave them just as it was found for the next caver to enjoy? And if you want to dig, go through the proper channels so that you can be sure that the SSSI designation isn't being affected. It really is that simple!
Fellow Club Secretaries,
I politely request you discourage your members from finger writing on sediment banks in caves. On a trip up the Merlin Streamway yesterday I found ?TSG?, ?Eldon PC?, ?CPC? and ?2011? inscribed in sediment deposits in sumps 5 and 6. I appreciate that this part of the cave is seldom accessible, and that there is probably a high degree of sediment reworking anyway. Nevertheless the Merlin Streamway is part of a Site of Special Scientific Interest, designated in part for its sediment deposits. Mud writing looks unsightly, and does not do your clubs? reputations much good at all. Of course historical inscriptions can be useful if inscribed at the limit of exploration as a record. However considering I got as far as sump 8 yesterday, and that John Beck, Moose and John Cordingly have pushed sump 8 for about 30ft in the past, the inscriptions left by your members in sumps 5 and 6 are not helpful.
Chesterfield Caving Club has done a lot of conservation work in the Stoney Middleton Dale caves , attempting to restore the caves to a semi-natural condition. We are constantly battling against mindless vandalism by ?non-cavers? in the more accessible caves such as the Eyam Passage. It would be disappointing to see the more remote and therefore more pristine caves also begin to decline as a result of carelessness by ?cavers?.
I would be grateful if you could pass this message onto ?CPC?, as I was unsure of the abbreviation.
With Regards,
Mark Cope
Chair, Chesterfield Caving Club
martinb
Member
Was there a cloudburst/thunderstorm above Eyam on Tuesday evening?
The stream in the Delph wasn't running when we went into Nickergrove about 1730, however, as we came out about 2015, we heard the distinct 'gurgle, burble' of the stream.
On further investigation, there was a very small head of water making its way downstream close to the Didsbury Shaft entrance.
I suppose winter has officially started........ :blink:
The stream in the Delph wasn't running when we went into Nickergrove about 1730, however, as we came out about 2015, we heard the distinct 'gurgle, burble' of the stream.
On further investigation, there was a very small head of water making its way downstream close to the Didsbury Shaft entrance.
I suppose winter has officially started........ :blink: