Water levels?

[martinb]

The draining of that particular bit of cave is interesting.  <snip>  A few years ago a (I?) detected a gurgle al (at?) the lowest point in the passage to the sump. Water was running away down a small gap between the roof and the mud bank. I spent several hours turning this slot into a a liquid chocolate pond without any conclusive idea about where the water went to. I think there is a little more down there than is currently seen.

John Beck says there is a slot close to the lowest point prior to the sump. He is convinced that there is another sough running down SMD and that the water in resurgence drains into this sough.

Digging during a drought anyone?

 

[Rob]

...He is convinced that there is another sough running down SMD and that the water in resurgence drains into this sough....

The Nut Scrin branch off of Victory Level gets very close to that area, which eventually drains out of Moorwood Sough. Would be a great place to open up if possible, but it will be approx 20-30m below road level.

 

[Pitlamp]

What i find bizzare is that it has been 2 1/2 days since any proper rain here, and yet the resurgence was still flowing strongly at 5pm when i drove past it today. Going down a lot slower than i expected....

. . . which suggests a mainly autogenic origin for the water (cf flow patterns at Sleets Gill Cave in the Dales).

CT - out of interest, did you dive into it? If so - please do write a log for the CDG Newsletter (copy date this weekend) so it gets picked up for the sump index. Or if you'd not planned to log this dive please can you send me a few details and I'll make sure it gets into the next sump index? Ta.

 

[graham]

What i find bizzare is that it has been 2 1/2 days since any proper rain here, and yet the resurgence was still flowing strongly at 5pm when i drove past it today. Going down a lot slower than i expected....

. . . which suggests a mainly autogenic origin for the water (cf flow patterns at Sleets Gill Cave in the Dales).

Possibly, or possibly a large reservoir.

 

[cavermark]

Am I right that "autogenic drainage" means water from rain that has fallen entirely onto Karst?

Isn't that a given for Stoney Catchment?

 

[langcliffe]

Am I right that "autogenic drainage" means water from rain that has fallen entirely onto Karst?

In essence yes. It is distinguished from "allogenic drainage", which is underground waters derived from surface run-off that originated from adjacent non-karstic rocks.

 

[Cave_Troll]

Pitlamp, Yes i dived it and sent email to Editor.

I wandered past it on Sunday when it was a static pool.
There does seem to be a delay as rob said, there's not been a huge amount of rain this week and i was expecting it to go down not up to the actual flow rate i found on Wed.

 

[Rob]

....Isn't that a given for Stoney Catchment?

Hmmm, not quite. Huckow Edge is not limestone (shale i think) so the runoff swallets (Duce Hole, Hungerhill, Waterfall Swallet, etc) will make a big proportion of the flow into the caves. Great Hucklow, Foolow, are Eyam are all on/near the limestone boundary, everything North of that line is not limestone on top.

What is unclear though is where the water that overflows out of Carlswark originates, because the important areas are inaccessible in flood. It is likely that it is the Streaks/Merlin/Big Dig stream that overflows into the back of Carlswark, instead of going down the Bedpan Sump and into Moorwood Sough that way. Additionally the boilup in Glebe may backup, forcing water up the Bedpan and into Carlswark. I think this option is unlikely.

The former would suggest less of the swallet water in the Carlswark water, making it more autogenic.

 

[cavermark]

Good information, cheers Rob.

 

[martinm]

What is unclear though is where the water that overflows out of Carlswark originates

The Wardlow bowl / mires maybe?  :-\ Isn't that where the water going through Streaks comes from? It must collect a hell of a lot of water when it's raining. Not sure which way the dip of the beds  is in that area, but some of it must overflow in the Stoney direction. John Beck would know, I'd think...

 

[danthecavingman]

Rob,

Check with Mark, Keith or John but I'm sure that the Carlswark Resurgence rarely if ever flowed before Big Dig was dug through to the streamway. I'm pretty sure I recall Keith telling me the story of the first time the resurgence flowed after Big Dig went and the digging team all kept very quiet about what they'd done as it flowed out and caused quite a problem by flooding the SMD road.
I'm also fairly sure but again John etc would know more, that the swallet water from Waterfall, Hungerhill etc is not seen in either Streaks, Merlin, Nickergrove or Carlswark but does emerge from Moorwood Sough via the Boil Up in Glebe. Presumably that means the water from the swallets is joined by the water from Carlswark somewhere upstream from the diving limit reached in the Boil Up. Another thing to note (again if memory serves me correctly) is also that the water in Carlswark now flows the 'wrong' way, against the original flow of water that formed the passages, this is due to the driving of the Soughs and the capture of the water from the Boil Up. So one must presume that Carlswark resurgence or other risings now lost in the floor of SMD were the natural resurgences for the water prior to the driving of the soughs and that they were 'unwatered' by the miners.

Dan.

 

[bograt]

Rob,

Check with Mark, Keith or John but I'm sure that the Carlswark Resurgence rarely if ever flowed before Big Dig was dug through to the streamway. I'm pretty sure I recall Keith telling me the story of the first time the resurgence flowed after Big Dig went and the digging team all kept very quiet about what they'd done as it flowed out and caused quite a problem by flooding the SMD road.
I'm also fairly sure but again John etc would know more, that the swallet water from Waterfall, Hungerhill etc is not seen in either Streaks, Merlin, Nickergrove or Carlswark but does emerge from Moorwood Sough via the Boil Up in Glebe. Presumably that means the water from the swallets is joined by the water from Carlswark somewhere upstream from the diving limit reached in the Boil Up. Another thing to note (again if memory serves me correctly) is also that the water in Carlswark now flows the 'wrong' way, against the original flow of water that formed the passages, this is due to the driving of the Soughs and the capture of the water from the Boil Up. So one must presume that Carlswark resurgence or other risings now lost in the floor of SMD were the natural resurgences for the water prior to the driving of the soughs and that they were 'unwatered' by the miners.

Dan.

The breakthrough at Big Dig was made through T'owd Man, he had already sorted it, don't forget the first Cavendish Mill dam burst, (1960's?) I was around at the  time.

 

[martinm]

The breakthrough at Big Dig was made through T'owd Man, he had already sorted it, don't forget the first Cavendish Mill dam burst, (1960's?) I was around at the  time.

Yeah, but there was no negotiable connection from Carlswark of significant size until it was dug out. I used to have a copy of the TSG journal that described the dig, etc. Can't remember which one it was now, (it's not shown on the TSG web site), but I think it was titled 'The Big Dig Series' or similar. A grim dig if I remember correctly and of course they had to dig through the collapsed bottom of the shaft originally driven by T'owd Man. 

So the water in the streamway wouldn't have been able to get through in significant quantities b4 the dig to flow out of the resurgence entrance like it has done since.

I guess it's possible that the driving of the soughs and subsequent lowering of average water levels caused the silting up of the connection passage in the first place. Or maybe  T'owd Man  dumped a load of spoil in it cos it was of no interest to them and compounded the probem?

Regards, Mel.

 

[cavermark]

Is there an up to date map/survey of the dale/catchment available anywhere - I'd like to see where the Doom stuff fits in (if its not still top secret?)

 

[Dorbin]

That's right, water rarely flowed out of resurgence before big dig. Did a lot in CW before the gin entrance, the main route in was resurgence and (bloody awkward despite a piece of old hemp rope) up the rift. One of the reasons someone assumed that was the only way in and died trying to go through the sump probably was all the litter and evidence around the entrance that it was well used, and had not regularly been washed away. We used to camp just outside the entrance when working inside. But going down ed shaft as it was quicker to the digs.

 

[bograt]

Before Gin Entrance?, god, you must be old  , check out the link below, lots of useful info.
Perhaps we should be looking for the original Bamforth hole?


http://www.chesterfieldcavingclub.org.uk/Stoney%20Middleton%20Dale%20Audit%20FINAL%20A4red.pdf

 

[Rob]

Is there an up to date map/survey of the dale/catchment available anywhere - I'd like to see where the Doom stuff fits in (if its not still top secret?)

We're still keeping it a little under raps, until access has been sorted.

But the headline stuff is that we have no definate knowledge of where all the water in Doom comes from or goes to. We presume it all goes to Moorwood. Lots to do still....

 

[cavermark]

Is there a map/survey of everything excluding Doom then?

 

[martinb]

Before Gin Entrance?, god, you must be old  , check out the link below, lots of useful info.
Perhaps we should be looking for the original Bamforth hole?


http://www.chesterfieldcavingclub.org.uk/Stoney%20Middleton%20Dale%20Audit%20FINAL%20A4red.pdf

Sorry to say, but we have checked for Bamforth Hole and have also checked with the 'Oracle of Eyam' as to its location.

If you go in Resurgence (when its not flowing) and climb up on the left, you will notice shot holes coming in from the wrong direction. This used to lead to Bamforth Hole.

On the ledge above and W of Gin there is a walk in rift and if you crawl and clamber towards the end of that, there is a mud collapse. This point is the connection to Resurgence but is now covered in crap.

We did briefly consider digging a connection, but for what point? 

 

[Rob]

Is there a map/survey of everything excluding Doom then?

Survey - Caves of Stoney Middleton Dale
Ref: JSB10232, EAN:
This survey shows the majority of caves and mines on the northern side of the dale from the village up as far as the junction with Farnsley Dale and includes a high level of surface detail.
Published by J.S.Beck.
Price:  ?5.75 
http://www.hitchnhike.co.uk/acatalog/Main_Menu_Stoney_Middleton_Area_838.html