What are your views on the CSCC?
- Thread starter Ed W
- Start date
NewStuff
New member
mikem said:
As we're trying to do with the country in general, most clubs in North Wales have embraced opening up, and many members of many clubs frequently undertake trips with other clubs, in other clubs "stomping grounds".
After a lot of contentious issues, the issues are mostly gone, as people wised up and realised there was a way forward without all the lockchopping, and winding up. It may not have been the first choice for some clubs, but for the most part, it works.
Pitlamp
Well-known member
NewStuff said:
I've not taken any sides in this discussion but, regarding the bit I highlighted in your above post, can I ask why you're involved in a discussion about an organisation that you don't seem to me a member of? Indeed, should you be involved?
Please don't think I'm trying to score any points against you personally; I'm really not. I'm just genuinely interested and I'm sure you do have reasons.
NewStuff
New member
We were members (I'm sure we'll show up on an archived list of BCA member clubs on the Internet Archive or similar). Most of us have been in other clubs.
The BCA repeatedly capitulated and let itself be held hostage. We wanted nothing to do with that. We made a decision to leave the BCA as a result. We're just one small club, We don't much care if we're blacklisted (I've been casually and informally informed that is the case in certain area's). I suspect other will follow suit if this is allowed to carry on - The green cards only have so much pull, there's a limit to what people will put up with.
There was hope and things were looking positive in the last 12 months or so, until this last round of idiocy, but that is the last straw, and has scuppered any chances we'll ever rejoin if it remains in it's present form. Should the majority decide that something new needs to replace the BCA, something for the members, not a handful of people in one region, dictating to the whole country, then we will gladly assist wherever we can. We want to help caving as a whole, but we have a moral compass, and as a result, we will not be part of the BCA in it's current form. The Hunters may be the centre of the Mendip universe, it's not dictating caving and BCA matters for an organisation that covers the whole of the UK.
The BCA repeatedly capitulated and let itself be held hostage. We wanted nothing to do with that. We made a decision to leave the BCA as a result. We're just one small club, We don't much care if we're blacklisted (I've been casually and informally informed that is the case in certain area's). I suspect other will follow suit if this is allowed to carry on - The green cards only have so much pull, there's a limit to what people will put up with.
There was hope and things were looking positive in the last 12 months or so, until this last round of idiocy, but that is the last straw, and has scuppered any chances we'll ever rejoin if it remains in it's present form. Should the majority decide that something new needs to replace the BCA, something for the members, not a handful of people in one region, dictating to the whole country, then we will gladly assist wherever we can. We want to help caving as a whole, but we have a moral compass, and as a result, we will not be part of the BCA in it's current form. The Hunters may be the centre of the Mendip universe, it's not dictating caving and BCA matters for an organisation that covers the whole of the UK.
Ed W
Member
Oceanrower said;
Thanks for the question. My limited experience of CSCC meetings is that people are prepared to travel, my other half travelled 1.5 hours each way to meetings over the years she was secretary and club rep. I think what puts people off is the atmosphere of the meetings which can feel very cliquey and intimidating if you are not in the "in crowd". That the "in crowd" mostly live locally may well lead to exclusion of "outsiders" as much if not more than the time and distance required to travel to meetings - just my opinion though.
Thanks for the question. My limited experience of CSCC meetings is that people are prepared to travel, my other half travelled 1.5 hours each way to meetings over the years she was secretary and club rep. I think what puts people off is the atmosphere of the meetings which can feel very cliquey and intimidating if you are not in the "in crowd". That the "in crowd" mostly live locally may well lead to exclusion of "outsiders" as much if not more than the time and distance required to travel to meetings - just my opinion though.
Ed W
Member
Interesting development with a Wessex member's views https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=26665.0
Ed W
Member
From CSCC website, AGM now 25th July at the Hunters.
https://www.cscc.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=diary:start
Note that anyone can attend as an observer...
https://www.cscc.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=diary:start
Note that anyone can attend as an observer...
My views on the CSCC are that its a matter for it's member clubs.
If you are a southern caver and are not happy about the way it is run then get involved and do something about it.
Those of us who are not southern cavers (like me) or not prepared to put in the effort should probably step away from the keyboard and do something more constructive.
If you are a southern caver and are not happy about the way it is run then get involved and do something about it.
Those of us who are not southern cavers (like me) or not prepared to put in the effort should probably step away from the keyboard and do something more constructive.
Ed W
Member
Fishes,
I don't disagree with what you say. I am a southern caver and a member of a CSCC member club. I have also attended my fair share of CSCC meetings over the years. The problem is that CSCC member clubs and their members are not getting involved (average voting attendance at meetings is usually only just quorate) and as such a small number of people are effectively running the agenda.
These posts are intended to highlight what is being done in the name of southern cavers and trying to get more of them to see that getting involved is important.
I don't disagree with what you say. I am a southern caver and a member of a CSCC member club. I have also attended my fair share of CSCC meetings over the years. The problem is that CSCC member clubs and their members are not getting involved (average voting attendance at meetings is usually only just quorate) and as such a small number of people are effectively running the agenda.
These posts are intended to highlight what is being done in the name of southern cavers and trying to get more of them to see that getting involved is important.
PeteHall
Moderator
Aside from everything else, the CSCC's response to the coronavirus situation has been woeful in my opinion.
While the DCA and CNCC have been negotiating on behalf of their members and providing regular updates, not a word from the CSCC, beyopnd quoting the bullshit MCR claim that most caves are closed.
Sorry, take that back. At 16.29 yesterday, the CSCC website Access News section was updated with a list of closed sites, though this has not been shared on their facebook page, or emailed to membership as far as I have seen so far.
https://cscc.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=access:access_news
While the DCA and CNCC have been negotiating on behalf of their members and providing regular updates, not a word from the CSCC, beyopnd quoting the bullshit MCR claim that most caves are closed.
Sorry, take that back. At 16.29 yesterday, the CSCC website Access News section was updated with a list of closed sites, though this has not been shared on their facebook page, or emailed to membership as far as I have seen so far.
https://cscc.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=access:access_news
menacer
Active member
Just in case I havn't been controversial or contrarion enough for one day, I'll pass a few thoughts on this topic too.
From my perspective, there is little point attending a meeting when the core committees of Mendip are of one mind.
In general ( few exceptions) the prime prerequesite for candidates being elected into Mendip committees are,.
1. Martin Grass Sycophants
2. Alan Butcher yes man
3. CCC ltd tea boy.
For this reason, there can be no change from within. People have tried and generally give up quite quickly, there are other parts of the country/world that are far more welcoming to cave in.
Usually a meeting is full of historical rhetoric, ending with "well its the landowners wishes" as if that's the final matter and any debate up to that point is inconsequential.
Bizarrely its become quite a common used ploy in caving debates, not just limited to Mendip, such as the Draenan chronicles and I note, is also being rolled out in the Covid debates across the entire country, in all caving regions.
Generally though the evidence for this is never provided and when landowners are contacted privately about access to their caves, bypassing control freak access bodies, the land owners are open friendly and willing to provide access. ( Note this is based on my anecdotal experience, I'm sure there must be some cases where it hasn't been fruitful but that's life)
The recent access update on the CSCC website is a perfect example of Mendip negativity.
Everything you can't do but nothing you can do.
It states that all Mendip huts are closed so you can't get a cscc key for all the caves and makes no mention that its still ok to go caving if you happen to have a key.... And be under no illusion, lots of people have keys.
Also
A recent thread noted that Fairy cave quarry is open to climbers not cavers.
Yet the CSCC website states there is no access to caves in the quarry.
So, it cant be a landowner issue, it must be a an access control body issue.
Fair enough if people don't want to operate leader lead or give out keys for key caves, but no reason to deny access to open caves such as Balch, Fairy and Hillwithy, Hilliers.
Why is this?
Every time you start to scratch under the surface off historical Mendip control access bodies, you always find the same people with same rhetoric.
When cave entrances change owner, the same people always rush to be the first to contact the owner about " their wishes" ...
And funnily enough, out of the blue, the landowners, all independently, make the same rules about anti kids, anti professional caving, limiting group sizes, lock the cave, give the key control access to the same people, every time.
Its astonishing how many new landowners have this independent epiphany, truly it is.
From my perspective, there is little point attending a meeting when the core committees of Mendip are of one mind.
In general ( few exceptions) the prime prerequesite for candidates being elected into Mendip committees are,.
1. Martin Grass Sycophants
2. Alan Butcher yes man
3. CCC ltd tea boy.
For this reason, there can be no change from within. People have tried and generally give up quite quickly, there are other parts of the country/world that are far more welcoming to cave in.
Usually a meeting is full of historical rhetoric, ending with "well its the landowners wishes" as if that's the final matter and any debate up to that point is inconsequential.
Bizarrely its become quite a common used ploy in caving debates, not just limited to Mendip, such as the Draenan chronicles and I note, is also being rolled out in the Covid debates across the entire country, in all caving regions.
Generally though the evidence for this is never provided and when landowners are contacted privately about access to their caves, bypassing control freak access bodies, the land owners are open friendly and willing to provide access. ( Note this is based on my anecdotal experience, I'm sure there must be some cases where it hasn't been fruitful but that's life)
The recent access update on the CSCC website is a perfect example of Mendip negativity.
Everything you can't do but nothing you can do.
It states that all Mendip huts are closed so you can't get a cscc key for all the caves and makes no mention that its still ok to go caving if you happen to have a key.... And be under no illusion, lots of people have keys.
Also
A recent thread noted that Fairy cave quarry is open to climbers not cavers.
Yet the CSCC website states there is no access to caves in the quarry.
So, it cant be a landowner issue, it must be a an access control body issue.
Fair enough if people don't want to operate leader lead or give out keys for key caves, but no reason to deny access to open caves such as Balch, Fairy and Hillwithy, Hilliers.
Why is this?
Every time you start to scratch under the surface off historical Mendip control access bodies, you always find the same people with same rhetoric.
When cave entrances change owner, the same people always rush to be the first to contact the owner about " their wishes" ...
And funnily enough, out of the blue, the landowners, all independently, make the same rules about anti kids, anti professional caving, limiting group sizes, lock the cave, give the key control access to the same people, every time.
Its astonishing how many new landowners have this independent epiphany, truly it is.
PeteHall
Moderator
No.mikem said:
But another regional body would not benefit the club in their own region.
A better question may be to ask if there is anything in the BCA constitution to prevent another regional council to be set up in the same region as an existing regional council...
Southern Caving Clubs Council perhaps?
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
mikem said:
A club can be a member of multiple regional councils. The regional councils are (I think) free to refuse membership.
