What is Moonmilk?

[Dep]

...
I like the idea that it is salt from the castle sh1te pit.

Not so sure it is - a long time ago I thought it might be something like that so I scrapped some off, sniffed it and then tasted it.
No taste at all - definitely not NaCl.

...but I partied all night! 

But if it's an old deposit from the castle toilet then it would be more likely to be potasium nitrate - Saltpetre.

But I am very sure this occurs elesewhere in Reigate, Peter told me he did not find it in another nearby site where I had said I was sure I had seen it, I shall have another look as I am sure it's there but cannot remember exactly where.
Very interested to see results of any analysis - well done Peter.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Where's your life line and helmet  :spank:

I left them at home with my flippers and goggles.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Some more information and discussion.

http://www.wcms.org.uk/pages/barons_efflorescence_jan2007.shtml

 

[gus horsley]

Interesting article Peter.  I've noticed similar deposits in Edward's Shortcut and the limestone there appears to have a slightly granular (pisolitic) texture with pore spaces.  Helictites often seem to favour such areas as well and there is probably a similar process at work.

 

[Limestone_Cowboy]

Very interesting article Peter, I agree with you that the granular nature of the sandstone would prevent the formation of more " standard " calcite speleothem. It was certainly interesting to analyse in the microscope.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Very interesting article Peter, I agree with you that the granular nature of the sandstone would prevent the formation of more " standard " calcite speleothem. It was certainly interesting to analyse in the microscope.

Many thanks for it. As always, more questions that now need to be answered!

 

[Peter Burgess]

Would that little blip at 2.0 keV be magnesium?

 

[Peter Burgess]

See how the calcite grows preferentially on the roof in this view. That sharp cutoff is either due to a geological feature affecting the seepage of water, or may reflect the distribution of lime-rich material in the ground above.

 

[Dep]

Very interesting alternative view of a familiar picture. Well spotted.
Are there not several very distinct vertical joints intersecting in there?
http://www.wcms.org.uk/cgi-bin/wcmsgallery.pl?imgno=1812
Shows it well too - in the area you too k the sample from I should add.
Look at the division along the left wall - with the benefit of hindsight that is consistent with something that has seeped down from above?

 

[Dep]

Would that little blip at 2.0 keV be magnesium?

... white 'mould' flecks in BB ?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Would that little blip at 2.0 keV be magnesium?

... white 'mould' flecks in BB ?

I reckon they are biological.

 

[Dep]

let's find out.

 

[Limestone_Cowboy]

The small peak at 1.95 KeV does not match any element particularly well. It is definitely not magnesium which has peaks between 1.25 and 1.3 KeV. Possibilities include various rare earth trace elements such as osmium and iridium, but slighlty more likely are a shifted peak from silica or phosphorus. I would need to re-examine the samples more closely to give a definite answer and even then it may just be a peak in the background noise. My personal favourite guess is a small piece of the underlying sandstone giving a silica peak which is slightly off where it should be.

Nick

 

[Peter Burgess]

Thanks. Googling about a bit I think I had worked out it wasn't Mg. Si makes sense, as I remember some of the wall coming away in one if not both samples. I wonder if anyone has ever done something like this on 'classic' moonmilk. Any similar photos would be especially interesting.

Peter

 

[Brains]

I had assumed it was just a spectral artefact echo at half energy of Ca, but looking again I dont think the main peak is double... It has been many years since I played with EDA, and I no longer have the big book of peak energies to look at! Being on the sensitivity hump the actual amount represented by the peak, if genuine, would be in the trace amounts bracket...
Happy to say all that stuff is no longer my problem!

 

[Peter Burgess]

It would be interesting to replicate this view to see how much growth there has been in the last 100 years.

 

[Mrs Trellis]

Inspect the inscriptions closely. If any have been made by fingers and have not coloured white then it's fungus - the heat and acidity of the finger kills the fungus which doesn't grow back so the graffito remains permanent ( Most that I have seen on your photos appear to have been made with metal tools.). We have an "1840" in the Alderley Edge Mines (copper mines in sandstone) although I can't find a good photograph online. This photograph about 100m further north of Graffiti chamber shows a similar wall but unsullied by graffiti. Graffiti chamber is at the bottom of an shaft formerly open to the surface and it was the habit of visitors to descend the shaft , write their name on the wall of the working, and re-ascend the shaft before their lights failed!

Higher North End Chamber Wood Mine (with chain for traverse from early 1950's) :-

 

[Peter Burgess]

Inspect the inscriptions closely. If any have been made by fingers and have not coloured white then it's fungus - the heat and acidity of the finger kills the fungus which doesn't grow back so the graffito remains permanent ( Most that I have seen on your photos appear to have been made with metal tools.). We have an "1840" in the Alderley Edge Mines (copper mines in sandstone) although I can't find a good photograph online. This photograph about 100m further north of Graffiti chamber shows a similar wall but unsullied by graffiti. Graffiti chamber is at the bottom of an shaft formerly open to the surface and it was the habit of visitors to descend the shaft , write their name on the wall of the working, and re-ascend the shaft before their lights failed!

The analysis written up here

Some more information and discussion.

http://www.wcms.org.uk/pages/barons_efflorescence_jan2007.shtml

confirms it as calcite. There may also be fungus there, but it all looks and feels pretty much the same throughout the cave.

In the case of the Alderley Edge fungus, what is the substrate it lives on?

 

[Mrs Trellis]

The sandstone is a river/lake bed from a broad, warm delta (think Camargue or similar). I guess there's some remnant organic matter in there. We say fungus - could it be mine fungus Fibroporia vaillantii? This grows on wood - and most of the shafts would have been timbered. The mines are quite shallow and this top level where Graffito chamber is situated is only about 10m below surface level. The constant temp is 9degC. In West Mine there is a purple fungus which grows below a mixed malachite band. Copper is often used as a fungicide! I have heard (possibly apocryphally) that this fungus is found otherwise only in Barbados

Purple fungus West Mine:-

 

[Peter Burgess]

I've been expecting someone to suggest that calcite doesn't grow as needles like in the photo limestone_cowboy took. It could be aragonite. I'll change the report accordingly sometime. Went down Barons' today. Took a set of photos of the roof from end to end. I am more convinced now that we have evidence of long lost buildings from the castle, showing as an 'image' on the cave roof. I now need to put all the photos in a montage, and superimpose it on the cave plan.