Wheres Dale Barn gone?

[JJ]

This is nothing new. I think I renember an article in Descent or possibly Caves and Caving from the late 70's or early 80's entiltled something like "Dale Barn a hard cookie for the CNCC".

If I renember rightly someone at that time from CNCC had even tried to visit the female owner in Ireland but had been given very short shrift. Things may have now changed but I have always found the tenant farmer helpful in the past.

Possibly somebody can find that old article.

JJ

 

[NigR]

In this instance, how far away the landowner lives is not the problem...

So if this is not a problem why (in your last post) do you say 'it could take some time given that the land owner does not live locally'?

You are assuming incorrectly that the CNCC are not showing urgency.

What else am I to assume when your previous final comment says 'but don't hold your breath....'?

The CNCC report to it's members at CNCC meetings, not via this forum.

Although I am not actively involved in caving politics in my own area (South Wales) I do know that the local regional council acts for (and communicates with) cavers in general, not just its own member clubs. I had assumed this was also the case in Yorkshire but I have obviously got it wrong.

So far as losing access to the cave permanently is concerned, I agree this would be a bad thing, hence my hope that the CNCC can help resolve the situation. Having said that, if nothing can be done by diplomatic means any direct action by cavers in reopening the cave themselves can hardly make things any worse - the cave is already totally inaccessible, it can't be made any more so.

 

[smollett]

In my view the land owner is perfectly within his rights to refuse entry onto his property. Demonizing the land owner is not appropriate. I have lived and worked on farms and can?t stand the attitude many people have towards access (mainly people from urban areas or backgrounds). It was by his good nature that cavers were allowed on the land in the first place. If his conditions are not kept to then it is perfectly understandable for him to refuse access and I can understand why he would refuse to let us back. I support CNCC?s efforts to reopen the cave but if these fail and access is refused then the land owner?s wishes should be respected. Forcing entry into the cave if access is refused would be detrimental to caving in the area. Word would undoubtedly get to other land owners undermining their opinion of cavers. I suggest Nigr remains in Wales and doesn?t aggrevate the situation!

 

[Deek]

Is the cave on open access land?

 

[NigR]

I suggest Nigr remains in Wales and doesn?t aggrevate the situation!

I have every intention of remaining in Wales at the present time, thank you very much. However, I will go wherever I like whenever I like and I object to being told I should do otherwise. Tell you what, smollett, next time I'm going to be up in the Dales I'll pm you and you can meet me face-to-face and tell me I'm not welcome - fair enough?

Despite your insinuation to the contrary, my aim is not to aggravate the situation but to help relieve it. I lived up north and caved in the Dales long enough to understand and respect the ethos of northern cavers. The simple fact is that if the cave is not reopened officially it will be reopened unofficially. Yes, I agree this may not necessarily be a good thing, hence my annoyance at (in my opinion) the lack of urgency shown by the CNCC, but this is what will happen so you better get used to it.

 

[Alistair S]

Glenn,

thanks for bringing this up at the cncc meeting and for setting in motion action towards a possible solution

 

[smollett]

Tell you what, smollett, next time I'm going to be up in the Dales I'll pm you and you can meet me face-to-face and tell me I'm not welcome - fair enough?

YES, Pistols at dawn, I?ll be there, unless I find something better to do or can?t be bothered :tease:

Having said that, if nothing can be done by diplomatic means any direct action by cavers in reopening the cave themselves can hardly make things any worse

Yes it can! This would result in the farmer resealing the entrances with even more rubble than before. A downward spiral with no chance of reopening the entrance.

The question of if the cave is on open access land is not an issue since the open access agreement does not extend to caving, and digging certainly doesn't.

 

[langcliffe]

since the open access agreement does not extend to caving

Let's not be quite so definitive. I have a letter from The Countryside Agency in which they confirm that the wording of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 is unclear on this issue, and can only be clarified by the High Court. I understand that other people have been told the same.

I am simply stating a fact - I am not putting forward an opinion on whether having a ruling from the High Court is desirable, or not.

 

[Sid Weighells Dog]

Nig - Just because you act urgently on something doesn't mean there's going to be a speedy resolution - I've been acting urgently on finding a new girlfriend for years, if I'd held my breath I'd be fucked in a completely unwanted sense by now - I suggest we let Glenn get on with it.

 

[SamT]

Lets all calm down. 

NigR has done a good job of bringing the situation to the relavent peoples attention (and a lot of other folks too).

Matters like this can, and often do take time, and a gently gently approach is usually the best way. It seems there is a long history with this cave/landowner dispute so I cant see anything happening over night.

It could well be that some cavers may turn up tomorrow and dig the entrance out cause not everybody reads these forums. It could well be that some cavers may turn up tomorrow and dig the entrance out exactly because they've read about it on these forums. And there is not a lot we can do about it sat behind our PC's. 

I cant quite see what the urgency is - Have you left something important down there Nigel.
Im sure Glenn and the good folks in yorkshire will make every attempt to sort out an agreeable access arrangement. But you cant really expect them to drop everything and sort things like this out overnight. It just doesn't work like that does it.

 

[NigR]

Nig - Just because you act urgently on something doesn't mean there's going to be a speedy resolution - I've been acting urgently on finding a new girlfriend for years, if I'd held my breath I'd be fucked in a completely unwanted sense by now - I suggest we let Glenn get on with it.

OK, I see your point (made me laugh as well). I'm quite happy to let Glenn get on with it, just hope something positive results.

I cant quite see what the urgency is - Have you left something important down there Nigel.

No, I haven't left anything important down there - or if I have it was so long ago that I've forgotten what it was. However, I am somewhat peeved about the current situation from a personal point of view on two counts. Firstly, I have visited the cave on many occasions in the past and secondly, I was hoping to visit it again in the near future. Also, the more I think about it the more upset I am by the action of the landowner. Had this thread not been posted, the CNCC would still be unaware that the cave had been filled-in. No matter how tenuous the previous access agreement (was there ever one?) may have been, surely the landowner (or tenant farmer) could have communicated their intentions to the CNCC before acting in such a unilateral manner. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for any landowners (in any area) who act in such a way. As I have already stated, my major concern over the question of urgency is that I am convinced that the longer things remain as they are the more likely it is that someone will do something which may make them worse. So yes, let's leave it to Glenn & co and hope I'm wrong.