Wheres Dale Barn gone?
- Thread starter Deek
- Start date
A
Alistair S
Guest
Hi,
It was about 5 years ago. We're fairly local tho and havent heard about any access issues. Will ask in Inglesport next time we're in.
It was about 5 years ago. We're fairly local tho and havent heard about any access issues. Will ask in Inglesport next time we're in.
spikey
New member
Is the entrance within an SSSI or other regulated piece of land ??
Is it protected under the National Park ??
If the site is protected, is the regulation of any real use in this instance (assuming it has been filled in) or would attempting to enforce it legally cause more problems than it solved ?? (ie. access to other sites in the valley, or on Scales Moor ?? )
Is it protected under the National Park ??
If the site is protected, is the regulation of any real use in this instance (assuming it has been filled in) or would attempting to enforce it legally cause more problems than it solved ?? (ie. access to other sites in the valley, or on Scales Moor ?? )
Alistair,
Let me know if you find out anything in Inglesport. (Some nice pics on your site, by the way. I'd like to see some of Dale Barn if you ever manage to get down there!)
Spikey,
Thanks for the help but I think it would (as you suspected) possibly cause greater problems. Access has always involved a low-key approach and that seems to have worked well over the years. It's just a bit of a mystery as to why things may have changed all of a sudden. Hopefully, we are all being totally useless in being unable to locate the entrance and it is in the same condition as it has always been.
Let me know if you find out anything in Inglesport. (Some nice pics on your site, by the way. I'd like to see some of Dale Barn if you ever manage to get down there!)
Spikey,
Thanks for the help but I think it would (as you suspected) possibly cause greater problems. Access has always involved a low-key approach and that seems to have worked well over the years. It's just a bit of a mystery as to why things may have changed all of a sudden. Hopefully, we are all being totally useless in being unable to locate the entrance and it is in the same condition as it has always been.
L
LoneRanger
Guest
Alistair S said:
Yep, I went up to have a look, and it sure does look like it's been filled in. From memory, I believe the entrance was right at the base of the cliff, close to the ash tree. An hour or two's digging might open it again.
I don't understand why anyone would want to fill it in. It was a fairly harmless little entrance. Did some cavers upset the farmer, perhaps by parking on his grazing land? I guess someone skilled in the diplomatic arts should go and ask him. Is this a job for the CNCC?
Glenn
Member
"I don't understand why anyone would want to fill it in. It was a fairly harmless little entrance. Did some cavers upset the farmer, perhaps by parking on his grazing land? I guess someone skilled in the diplomatic arts should go and ask him. Is this a job for the CNCC?"
I'll mention it at the next CNCC meeting, this Friday.
Cheers,
Glenn
I'll mention it at the next CNCC meeting, this Friday.
Cheers,
Glenn
N
Niche
Guest
The last time I went into Dale Barn must have been the summer of 2003. As has been described above, the oil drum at 45 degrees under the scar was concealed under a slab covered with scree. When I returned about two years later (as one of a party of about 8 or 9) we easily located the point under the scar where the entrance is, but there was a considerable ammount of extra rock which appeared to have been quite deliberately dumped. With a relatively large party to hand we set too to clear the entrance, only to find that the large slab had been removed and the oildrum completely filled in. Employing some of the smaller and more agile members of our group we emptied the oil drum only to find that the passage beyond was also blocked for quite some distance and was impassable without a major digging effort. Who ever filled it in did a good job! Well over an hour was spent shifting rock - which entailed holding onto the feet of the person who went head first through the drum to extricate the boulders, hawling them out again each time. It became evident that the task could not be completed before the pubs shut, so we reluctantly concealed the entrance again and went for a potter through Great Douk instead. I remember there being some talk (possibly speculation) at the time of the farmer having sealed Dale Barn because of concerns about caving activity contaminating the water supply (carbide?) Has anyone managed to get in since our last attempt in summer 2005?
N
Niche
Guest
Correction - it was summer 2006 when we tried to dig our way in.
Deek said:
Don't quite see the point of being so pedantic but if that's the way you want it so be it. Let me explain it slowly and simply so there can be no misunderstanding. My initial assessment, on the ground at the time, after being unable to find the cave and coming across a pile of scree that appeared to be man-made was that I was in the correct place and that the entrance had been filled-in. Upon returning to the car to get a head-torch to combat the failing light I decided that this was probably an over-dramatic conclusion to reach based on the available evidence. Wandering around in the dark did nothing to clarify the situation and cast doubts into my mind as to whether I had been in the right place to begin with, hence my decision to leave it for another time. I was rather hoping it was merely down to my own incompetence and that my initial feelings were wrong but, sadly, it would appear that this is no longer the case. Let's just hope that Glenn or someone else from the CNCC can make some sort of diplomatic contact with the farmer and get things sorted out to the benefit of all concerned.
Glenn
Member
The CNCC Access Officer visited Twistleton Dale House (actually it's the house next door) on Saturday morning. The people who live in the house only manage the land that Dale Barn is located on, the land owner does not live locally. The cave was filled in by the landowner because on two seperate occasions cavers ignored the agreed access restrictions - from trhe CNCC website:
Call at; Twistleton Dale House, Cave must not be visited when adjacent bungalow is occupied.
On both occasions (above) access was not requested and the land owner was in the bungalow. The land owner aproached the cavers who were less than diplomatic, so he closed the cave.
The CNCC will attempt to resolve the situation, but it could take some time given that the land owner does not live locally.
I'll provide a further update when I have more news, but don't hold your breath....
Glenn
Call at; Twistleton Dale House, Cave must not be visited when adjacent bungalow is occupied.
On both occasions (above) access was not requested and the land owner was in the bungalow. The land owner aproached the cavers who were less than diplomatic, so he closed the cave.
The CNCC will attempt to resolve the situation, but it could take some time given that the land owner does not live locally.
I'll provide a further update when I have more news, but don't hold your breath....
Glenn
Thanks for the info, Glenn.
This is a great shame. Although you could say it has resulted due to cavers ignoring the agreed access restrictions, it seems to be a very petty action by the landowner.
Your final comments do perturb me somewhat in so much as I would have thought the CNCC would make it a matter of urgency to resolve the situation as quickly as possible. Surely, in these times of instant communication, it should not matter whether the landowner lives locally or not. Once word gets around that the cave has been filled in for no apparent reason, chances are that someone will attempt to dig it out again and I think it is of prime importance that a diplomatic solution is reached before this happens.
This is a great shame. Although you could say it has resulted due to cavers ignoring the agreed access restrictions, it seems to be a very petty action by the landowner.
Your final comments do perturb me somewhat in so much as I would have thought the CNCC would make it a matter of urgency to resolve the situation as quickly as possible. Surely, in these times of instant communication, it should not matter whether the landowner lives locally or not. Once word gets around that the cave has been filled in for no apparent reason, chances are that someone will attempt to dig it out again and I think it is of prime importance that a diplomatic solution is reached before this happens.
To be fair to Glenn, Nig; you know that farmers and landowners find it easy to say 'no' by phone, or e-mail. Manners and general human fellow feeling are more available face to face. Also, a "maybe" can be worked upon, but if you once get a "no", then it's very hard to get back onto a positive footing from there.
Unless landowners in your neck of the woods are more full of the milk of human kindness than up our way, that is!
Unless landowners in your neck of the woods are more full of the milk of human kindness than up our way, that is!
Yes, I agree that the personal touch can often produce the best results but I also think that some form of initial contact should be made sooner rather than later. Does anybody know how far away the landowner actually lives? I'm not getting at Glenn or the CNCC as I'm sure they try to do their best, often under difficult circumstances, but I would like to see a little more urgency being shown, that's all.
Can't really say whether landowners in South Wales are any better than in Yorkshire but I honestly cannot recall a similar situation (an established cave entrance being deliberately filled-in) happening down here. Although I normally do my best to avoid any involvement in caving politics, I would like to think that the local regional council would be quick to act if such an event did occur. Certainly, if they did not then it would be only a matter of time before local cavers took things into their own hands - something I think should be avoided in the case of Dale Barn if at all possible.
Can't really say whether landowners in South Wales are any better than in Yorkshire but I honestly cannot recall a similar situation (an established cave entrance being deliberately filled-in) happening down here. Although I normally do my best to avoid any involvement in caving politics, I would like to think that the local regional council would be quick to act if such an event did occur. Certainly, if they did not then it would be only a matter of time before local cavers took things into their own hands - something I think should be avoided in the case of Dale Barn if at all possible.
Glenn
Member
Hi Nigel,
"Does anybody know how far away the landowner actually lives?
Yes, the CNCC know how far away the landowner lives. Why would you think we don't. In this instance, how far away the landowner lives is not the problem...
>I'm not getting at Glenn or the CNCC as I'm sure they try to do their best, often under difficult >circumstances, but I would like to see a little more urgency being shown, that's all.
You are assuming incorrectly that the CNCC are not showing urgency. The CNCC report to it's members at CNCC meetings, not via this forum. In the meantime it's officers get on with doing their (voluntary) jobs, such as sorting access. I said previously "don't hold your breath" as I suspect, due to various factors, this issue will be resolved in weeks, rather than days.
I'll let you know when this has been resolved, but your comment "if they did not then it would be only a matter of time before local cavers took things into their own hands" would probably mean losing access to the cave permanently, let's not forget why the landowner closed the cave in the first place.
Glenn
"Does anybody know how far away the landowner actually lives?
Yes, the CNCC know how far away the landowner lives. Why would you think we don't. In this instance, how far away the landowner lives is not the problem...
>I'm not getting at Glenn or the CNCC as I'm sure they try to do their best, often under difficult >circumstances, but I would like to see a little more urgency being shown, that's all.
You are assuming incorrectly that the CNCC are not showing urgency. The CNCC report to it's members at CNCC meetings, not via this forum. In the meantime it's officers get on with doing their (voluntary) jobs, such as sorting access. I said previously "don't hold your breath" as I suspect, due to various factors, this issue will be resolved in weeks, rather than days.
I'll let you know when this has been resolved, but your comment "if they did not then it would be only a matter of time before local cavers took things into their own hands" would probably mean losing access to the cave permanently, let's not forget why the landowner closed the cave in the first place.
Glenn
