which carabiners for anchors

[cap n chris]

I've been using the same two Petzl Locker carabiners on my cowstails for over ten years now, and they're still doing fine. I use a notchless snapgate on my central short loop for passing rebelays and traverse lines, as it's so short it's almost impossible to unload it accidentally.

Carabiners, if well looked after and inspected routinely, can last 10, 15 or more years. If you're using them in a work setting some manufacturers stipulate retiring them at three years ("they would say that, wouldn't they?"). Mark Wright will doubtless be a reliable source to provide further details if required.

Other items of caving kit will benefit from retiring far sooner, e.g. helmets and textiles, with manufacturers stating a ten year upper expectancy.

Remember that BCA equipment and techniques dept published advice to untie and retie your safety connectors' rope between caving trips in order to "reset" its dynamic shock load absorbing characteristic.

 

[michael.11]

And for the long cowstail (which I also use for backup when rappelling off cliffs) - should I ise HMS carabiner, which I already have, or a smaller "D" one? I noticed my HMS is very prone to cross-loading, but I'm not sure its an issue im this case

 

[Ian P]

Hi Michael.11

Thanks for starting an interesting debate.

Do you know someone called “Smiley Alan” ? Asking for a friend.

 

[andrewmcleod]

And for the long cowstail (which I also use for backup when rappelling off cliffs) - should I ise HMS carabiner, which I already have, or a smaller "D" one? I noticed my HMS is very prone to cross-loading, but I'm not sure its an issue im this case

What do you mean by 'backup' for abseiling? (because I can think of several things you might mean)

 

[michael.11]

What do you mean by 'backup' for abseiling? (because I can think of several things you might mean)

Clipping into an anchor or a loop in the rope when I'm at the cliff's edge, before I start absceiling

Do you know someone called “Smiley Alan” ? Asking for a friend.

Nope

 

[andrewmcleod]

Clipping into an anchor or a loop in the rope when I'm at the cliff's edge, before I start absceiling

OK - that's a normal use of a cowstail.

Ignoring various minor or largely irrelevant details, I don't think it particularly matters whether you have D-shaped carabiners or an HMS on your cowstails.

 

[badger]

Like Chris I am very surprised an instructor has shown SRT techniques using snap gates, I would defiantly not consider it anywhere near best practice. as clearly shown in the video link how easy it is to disconnect a rope from a karabiner. I personally do not like the double gated snap gates, its only my preference, butalso I have lots of petzl OK's. on my cowstails I have 2 locking and one snap gate. weight saving on snap gates in the great scheme of things is minimal. time saving on snap gates, likewise, minimal.

 

[mikem]

"SRT guide" doesn't necessarily mean a qualified instructor

 

[cap n chris]

BCA qualifications aren't necessary for anyone in a club or amateur setting to provide tuition,.even though the BCA syllabus used to unequivocally state that passing on technical tuition (in particular SRT) was something that would fall within the CIC remit, even implying as much within a club setting back in the day when the BCA had cajones. I guess that got dropped because clubs kinda run the BCA rather than the other way around. Heyho. Anyone with a £5 budget can buy a helmet and win a plastic torch in a raffle and call themselves a caver, or instructor, nowadays. Progress is good and I'm all for it. Why bother with 4-7 years of structured training and assessments? Mods can delete this tomorrow or sooner if they wish.

 

[JoshW]

BCA qualifications aren't necessary for anyone in a club or amateur setting to provide tuition,.even though the BCA syllabus used to unequivocally state that passing on technical tuition (in particular SRT) was something that would fall within the CIC remit, even implying as much within a club setting back in the day when the BCA had cajones.

along the lines of your 'well manufacturers would say that from earlier'.. 'well you would say that'.

I know plenty of perfectly competent SRT coaches that have no interest whatsoever in commercial qualifications, likewise I know commercial qualification holders who I wouldn't listen to from a technical perspective.

In the PPE inspection world, LOLER defines a competent person as having 'such appropriate practical and theoretical knowledge and experience of the lifting equipment...'. Note the absence of the word qualified.

 

[cap n chris]

Clipping into an anchor or a loop in the rope when I'm at the cliff's edge, before I start absceiling


Nope

along the lines of your 'well manufacturers would say that from earlier'.. 'well you would say that'.

I know plenty of perfectly competent SRT coaches that have no interest whatsoever in commercial qualifications, likewise I know commercial qualification holders who I wouldn't listen to from a technical perspective.

In the PPE inspection world, LOLER defines a competent person as having 'such appropriate practical and theoretical knowledge and experience of the lifting equipment...'. Note the absence of the word qualified.

Indeed, which is why the BCA scheme is defunct and soon to cease,. I reckon. It's pretty much irrelevant and definitely non representative of caving, immediately proven by the fact that mainstream caving, clubs and cavers have nothing whatsoever to do with it.

 

[aricooperdavis]

BCA qualifications aren't necessary for anyone in a club or amateur setting to provide tuition...

They're not necessary, in the same way you don't have to have an SPA to teach your mates to climb, but I don't know of any caving club offering an actual qualification from their informal training (they'd be mad to, with the liability implications). I personally still see a lot of value in the BCA schemes, particularly the CIC. I've not met a CIC who I don't think really knows their stuff. It's just not feasible for many clubs to get all their members trained up exclusively by one

 

[Fjell]

1. Does “Remember that BCA equipment and techniques dept published advice to untie and retie your safety connectors' rope between caving trips in order to "reset" its dynamic shock load absorbing characteristic.” Really seem the very very best advice for a novice? Is not the act of retying them and possibly leaving them fairly loose more of an issue? You will end up with the short one being varying lengths on every trip if you are not careful, a pain for me. Do you do that between every deep caving trip after far more loadings than any Dales trips? Would you in fact retie them half way down the cave? Because, really, why not? I jump up and down on my knots from a bolt in the garage and then buy new ones every year.

2. The whole thing about screw gates on cowtails should be irrelevant because you should never have one point of contact during any manoeuvre unless it is a descender. And a descender is only OK if it has been locked, loaded under body weight and checked it is in the correct orientation.

 

[JoshW]

Indeed, which is why the BCA scheme is defunct and soon to cease,. I reckon. It's pretty much irrelevant and definitely non representative of caving, immediately proven by the fact that mainstream caving, clubs and cavers have nothing whatsoever to do with it.

can't see the scheme dying, certainly from a Local cave leader and local vertical cave leader (or mine equivalents) - they're too useful in the outdoor instruction world.

 

[cap n chris]

They're not necessary, in the same way you don't have to have an SPA to teach your mates to climb, but I don't know of any caving club offering an actual qualification from their informal training (they'd be mad to, with the liability implications). I personally still see a lot of value in the BCA schemes, particularly the CIC. I've not met a CIC who I don't think really knows their stuff. It's just not feasible for many clubs to get all their members trained up exclusively by one

The BCA had (perhaps still has) a training grant slush kitty specifically so clubs can have "free" CIC professional training for their members as part of their BCA subscription benefits. Well kept secret, or something club committees suffocate at birth. You decide. It's called the Recreational Training Grant. Regional Council Training Officers oversee it but only if they're asked about it. Hence well kept secret. I'm very pleased to hear you have a positive mindset about CICs, btw. Thank you.

Re: Fjell comment about untieing safety connectors. Yes. Between every caving trip, but not while caving itself. So when you finish and pack down, and clean/inspect your kit, you untie and the safety connectors knots. Due to the BCA missive I've been doing this for many years, totalling many thousands of times. It's standard daily practice.

 

[cap n chris]

To paraphrase somewhat the late great Dave Elliott, in his seminal work SRT, if "you can't be bothered to look after your kit you should give up caving ". Reading between the lines I think he actually meant you should"fcuk off ", and he doubtlessly wrote that initially but the publishers overruled it.

 

[michael.11]

Like Chris I am very surprised an instructor has shown SRT techniques using snap gates, I would defiantly not consider it anywhere near best practice.

It was a very experienced instructor. I forgot to mention that I am not from UK (Israel) and the "best practices" may differ here. The instructor mentioned that UK cavers usually use screw gates or maillons. His reasoning for using snap gates were that a bolt in proper rigging is never a single attachment point and that these carabiners are under a static load - which makes them nearly impossible to unclip. And that in muddy caves screw gates are an issue.

In any case after reading this thread I decided to use screw gates for myself.

 

[aricooperdavis]

The BCA had (perhaps still has) a training grant slush kitty specifically so clubs can have "free" CIC professional training for their members as part of their BCA subscription benefits. Well kept secret, or something club committees suffocate at birth.

That's news to me, and I spent 4 years on my club committee applying for grants from all over the place! It needs publicising better, as it sounds like a superb resource that (in all seriousness) could save lives.

I'm very pleased to hear you have a positive mindset about CICs, btw. Thank you.

Absolutely, you're quite literally the experts!

untie and retie your safety connectors' rope between caving trips in order to "reset" its dynamic shock load absorbing characteristic

The other argument I've heard for this is that being stuck in a knot for a long time damages the core of the rope, and means that if you have to retie the barrel knot for some reason then it'll have a far lower breaking strength. I've certainly untied some club cows-tails and the core has been squeezed flat and brittle!

 

[andrewmcleod]

I'm pretty sure the French did some testing where they preloaded knots (to more than body weight) before drop testing them, to make them more similar to knots that have been left tied for a long time, and while it did increase the shock load a bit it didn't make an enormous difference.

If you are happy untying and retying your cowstails every time, you can enjoy the benefits of very slightly reduced shock loads. Personally I can't be bothered...

And while I don't generally do it for practical reasons, using snapgates for rigging really should be safe enough by the normal rules of 'two points of attachment' - you should never be relying on a single bolt after all.

 

[Fjell]

That's news to me, and I spent 4 years on my club committee applying for grants from all over the place! It needs publicising better, as it sounds like a superb resource that (in all seriousness) could save lives.


Absolutely, you're quite literally the experts!


The other argument I've heard for this is that being stuck in a knot for a long time damages the core of the rope, and means that if you have to retie the barrel knot for some reason then it'll have a far lower breaking strength. I've certainly untied some club cows-tails and the core has been squeezed flat and brittle!

At work we threw away all lifting slings and other nylon every 6 months as it is impossible to reliably inspect. If the core is brittle you need to throw them away way more often. Effectively I throw mine away after no more than about 30 trips, usually less.

There is no track record of cowstails made of climbing rope actually breaking, regardless of their abuse. I am just paranoid, particularly about my wife’s kit. I actually worry more about things like contamination. There is no incident I am aware of where knot tightness made any difference to the outcome. Introducing a failure mode where you retie the knots (with no doubt a shortish tail) every trip makes absolutely no sense from a risk perspective.