why cant club members of BCA join the British Cave Research Asociation?

[TheBitterEnd]

The whole BCRA and BCA membership structure should be customer centred.  It clearly isn't.  Whoever thought 'DIM' was a cool membership category doesn't understand professional sales and marketing techniques.  Volunteers do an essential job but they still need to listen and be prepared to take on board new ideas to take the organisation into the future.

BCA launched a 12 month consultation on improvements to our membership structure in, I think, 2011. At the end of the 12 months I was only aware of one response! Executive are now actively looking at moving forward and genuinely welcome input and ideas. As I've explained to IanP in the past, though, while BCA and BCRA work closely together, BCRA's membership structure has nothing to do with BCA. We do combine to process all memberships in one location to make life easier for people, but BCRA's membership structure is quite rightly an matter for them.

A couple of years ago I decided I'd like to get the Journals so I looked at the options but being a bit dim I couldn't figure it out and officially became DIM. I really couldn't penetrate the differences between the BCA and BCRA, who publishes which journal and how on earth CIM+ works.

I'm sure you are right that the BCA and BCRA are separate organisations but they do seem to have some pretty close ties and I suspect that  that this leads to confusion.

As Kay says, I don't remember being invited to contribute to a consultation either and I generally read most of this sort of stuff.

 

[cavermark]

I don't think its massively complicated, and no doubt reducing the number of categories would mean some people pay a lot more than they do under the curretn system.
However, the way the information is presented on the website is far from simple - you have to click on each individual category to see a (not concise) description and the cost. Some of it is now out of date (for example, the new student rate isn't on this page: http://british-caving.org.uk/?page=114

The information on BCRA subscription isn't visible either. All pretty user unfriendly and probably gives the impression that it is really complicated.

 

[Pitlamp]

Volunteers or not, BCRA administraters would be very wise to listen to the concerns of Ian.P.  Ian and his chums represent what could be the new era of BCRA membership.  If he is feeling this frustrated with the system then it is not working.  Administraters who are satisfied with the status quo are likely to preside over the demise of the organisation.

The whole BCRA and BCA membership structure should be customer centred.  It clearly isn't.  Whoever thought 'DIM' was a cool membership category doesn't understand professional sales and marketing techniques.  Volunteers do an essential job but they still need to listen and be prepared to take on board new ideas to take the organisation into the future.

You make some reasonable points there - but - do you really think cavers want "professional sales and marketing techniques" rammed down our throats? This is the sort of thought process which led to the dressing up of our national conference with a term such as "Hidden Earth" (which is, frankly, rather silly - when you pause to think about it).

I recently renewed my BCA DIM membership for 2013 and didn't find it too traumatic. I hear what you say Badlad - and much of your comment is well worth serious thought - but let's call a spade a spade and stop trying to kid ourselves.

 

[Badlad]

Volunteers or not, BCRA administraters would be very wise to listen to the concerns of Ian.P.  Ian and his chums represent what could be the new era of BCRA membership.  If he is feeling this frustrated with the system then it is not working.  Administraters who are satisfied with the status quo are likely to preside over the demise of the organisation.

The whole BCRA and BCA membership structure should be customer centred.  It clearly isn't.  Whoever thought 'DIM' was a cool membership category doesn't understand professional sales and marketing techniques.  Volunteers do an essential job but they still need to listen and be prepared to take on board new ideas to take the organisation into the future.

I take it you are volunteering to help then? 

I am making a serious comment on this post.  Why should you think I am volunteering to help, I am not.

 

[Pitlamp]

I think Graham was just trying to make a similar point to my post this morning - but perhaps not quite as subtly. The best way to implement change is usually to get involved directly. Admittedly this does involve quite a bit of work.

 

[damian]

Some of it is now out of date (for example, the new student rate isn't on this page: http://british-caving.org.uk/?page=114

I'm picking up on this because I want to get it right (having updated all the pages fairly recently). The new Student category is for DIMs and it has been added to the DIM page linked from your page. What are you suggesting is missing, and from where?

In general I agree the membership sections is not as clear as it should be on the BCA pages. I would dearly love to improve it but, to be honest, am horribly pressed for time and websites are far from my strengths! We definitely need to improve the membership part of our website and I would love to hear useful suggestions for how to do this ... I should add, though, that 90% of our Members join through their Clubs so don't need to interact with any aspect of our membership website. We also have an excellent Membership Administrator who solves queries quickly by e-mail. If anyone wants to know anything, all they need to do is drop him a quick message.

 

[graham]

We also have an excellent Membership Administrator who solves queries quickly by e-mail. If anyone wants to know anything, all they need to do is drop him a quick message.

Have to agree with that. 

 

[bograt]

The BCRA is a constituent body of BCA (just the same as CHECC, NAMHOS, or regional councils), any membership issues are the responsibility of the BCRA, NOT the BCA.
I don't know about other regional bodies, but DCA offer reduced terms for BCA CIM's.

 

[TheBitterEnd]

Sorry but that doesn't really help (me at least). Every time I read about BCA/BCRA membership the thing that I hear is that School sketch in the Meaning of Live where John Cleese is a public School Teacher (no, no, the bit before the sex education).

In fact this:

HUMPHREY: All right, settle down. Settle down. [clunk] Now, before I begin the lesson, will those of you who are playing in the match this afternoon move your clothes down onto the lower peg immediately after lunch, before you write your letter home, if you're not getting your hair cut, unless you've got a younger brother who is going out this weekend as the guest of another boy, in which case, collect his note before lunch, put it in your letter after you've had your hair cut, and make sure he moves your clothes down onto the lower peg for you. Now,--

WYMER: Sir?

HUMPHREY: Yes, Wymer?

WYMER: My younger brother's going out with Dibble this weekend, sir, but I'm not having my hair cut today, sir.

PUPILS: [chuckling]

WYMER: So, do I move my clothes down, or--

HUMPHREY: I do wish you'd listen, Wymer. It's perfectly simple. If you're not getting your hair cut, you don't have to move your brother's clothes down to the lower peg. You simply collect his note before lunch, after you've done your scripture prep, when you've written your letter home, before rest, move your own clothes onto the lower peg, greet the visitors, and report to Mr. Viney that you've had your chit signed.

 

[damian]

Attempting a quick summary (but probably going to regret it!):

Individuals can join BCA in two ways, either directly (i.e. they liaise directly with Glenn) or through their club (i.e they liaise with their Club Secretary / treasurer, who collates the info and liaises with Glenn on behalf of their members). The second option is cheaper because the club does some of the admin on BCA's behalf and also agrees to communicate with members on BCA's behalf so they don't need to receive their own copies of BCA's Handbook, Newsletters, Speleology, AGM notifications etc. The vast majority choose to join by this latter route (and pay ?17 instead of ?32). The direct route is called Direct Individual Membership (DIM), the indirect route is called Club Individual Membership (CIM).

To slightly complicate the above, there are various discounts available on the above. These are for: students or Under 18s; non-cavers (who pay a lower insurance contribution); and joint members at the same address (who elect to share a copy of the publications).

As a further complication (but actually designed to be helpful for some) individuals can choose to join via their club but pay the full membership fee and receive publications. This is called CIM Plus.

Anyone who is a DIM (or CIM Plus) can also join BCRA is they wish. This is mostly because BCA and BCRA share some publications, so BCRA members have to pay to receive them somehow. BCRA membership costs a further ?12 (or ?22 to receive their publications on paper).

All this is handled VERY easily by an excellent online form devised by David Gibson. Once you are a member, you are posted an annual renewal form by Glenn, making the process even easier.

Questions?

 

[Pitlamp]

We also have an excellent Membership Administrator who solves queries quickly by e-mail. If anyone wants to know anything, all they need to do is drop him a quick message.

Have to agree with that. 

Me too - he's always been really helpful to me.

 

[Badlad]

I think Graham was just trying to make a similar point to my post this morning - but perhaps not quite as subtly. The best way to implement change is usually to get involved directly. Admittedly this does involve quite a bit of work.

Your implication (and Grahams) is that people cannot make serious comment or criticism of an organisation without getting involved directly to effect change.  So, we all have to be MP's or local councillors to comment on national politics or moan about the state of the local roads, do we?

90% of members joining through their clubs sounds great.  But there are a lot more than 10% of cavers who don't belong to a clubs.  That suggests that a lot of individuals that could join BCA/BCRA are not doing so.  The question is why.  Maybe The Bitter End really has it spot on.  I know for a fact that there are two people in our house that would join if the membership structure was more user friendly.

To get back to Ian.P's question.  If there are young cavers interested in science (and there are) then the route into joining BCRA needs to be made as easy and cheap as possible.  If Ian.P cannot find these favourable membership consessions then I doubt many others are going to.  The fact that only 9 people joined as CIM Plus members would seem to support his point.

 

[damian]

90% of members joining through their clubs sounds great.  But there are a lot more than 10% of cavers who don't belong to a clubs.  That suggests that a lot of individuals that could join BCA/BCRA are not doing so.  The question is why.  Maybe The Bitter End really has it spot on.  I know for a fact that there are two people in our house that would join if the membership structure was more user friendly.

Can you elaborate? What is stopping them? (I'm genuinely interested, not trying to be difficult.)

To get back to Ian.P's question.  If there are young cavers interested in science (and there are) then the route into joining BCRA needs to be made as easy and cheap as possible.  If Ian.P cannot find these favourable membership consessions then I doubt many others are going to.  The fact that only 9 people joined as CIM Plus members would seem to support his point.

For 2013 BCA and BCRA have got together (thanks in no small part to IanP kicking us up the backside last year) and have agreed to provide students and Under 18s with BCA and BCRA membership all in for only ?16 - now that's got to be a bargain!

 

[cavermark]

Attempting a quick summary (but probably going to regret it!):

Individuals can join BCA in two ways, either directly (i.e. they liaise directly with Glenn) or through their club (i.e they liaise with their Club Secretary / treasurer, who collates the info and liaises with Glenn on behalf of their members). The second option is cheaper because the club does some of the admin on BCA's behalf and also agrees to communicate with members on BCA's behalf so they don't need to receive their own copies of BCA's Handbook, Newsletters, Speleology, AGM notifications etc. The vast majority choose to join by this latter route (and pay ?17 instead of ?32). The direct route is called Direct Individual Membership (DIM), the indirect route is called Club Individual Membership (CIM).

To slightly complicate the above, there are various discounts available on the above. These are for: students or Under 18s; non-cavers (who pay a lower insurance contribution); and joint members at the same address (who elect to share a copy of the publications).

As a further complication (but actually designed to be helpful for some) individuals can choose to join via their club but pay the full membership fee and receive publications. This is called CIM Plus.

Anyone who is a DIM (or CIM Plus) can also join BCRA is they wish. This is mostly because BCA and BCRA share some publications, so BCRA members have to pay to receive them somehow. BCRA membership costs a further ?12 (or ?22 to receive their publications on paper).

All this is handled VERY easily by an excellent online form devised by David Gibson. Once you are a member, you are posted an annual renewal form by Glenn, making the process even easier.

Questions?

You asked earlier how the membership pages on the website could be made easier to understand - just put this summary as the first page you hit when you click "membership" and that would do it for me.
In other words - very brief outline of all the categories and what they cost, all on one page.
You could have links to the more detailed info on each type of membership (if you can vote etc.) from this (personally I don't need to know more than what you have in the summary). The membership form does make it clear, you are right - I'd keep this link from the summary page too.

 

[Les W]

The cost for a student to join BCRA is ?16
This is composed of BCA DIM membership of ?32 but discounted by 50% to ?16. BCRA membership for students is free if taking electronic publications.

The requirement for BCRA members to belong to BCA was a BCRA decision. The subscription level (BCA+BCRA) was determined as being the same as the previous direct route of BCRA only membership.

BCRA themselves decided, as part of the "one stop shop" that BCA membership was/is a prerequisite for BCRA membership. This structure was decided so that all payments would go to one organisation and "appear" to the end user to be one payment, although BCA passes on the extra subscription to BCRA, acting as their subscriptions agent...

The reason you cannot (couldn't) join BCRA via a club was to do with BCRA's requirement for BCA DIM membership.

This all happened at the same time as the demise of BCRA's insurance scheme and the new scheme starting from BCA. CIM membership was provided so that club members could have a cheap route to insurance without any of the other benefits of BCA membership (It was believed that most cavers weren't interested in the direct membership route as they only wanted insurance.

The cheap route to membership came at a price, it required club officers to do some of the admin of the CIM membership for BCA, and all communications and notifications. BCRA membership was not offered as an option because of the additional complications of another type of payment for club officers to have to administer, but later, for club members that could persuade their officers to deal with the extra admin burden, BCA added CIM+ to provide this functionality. The benefit of CIM+ is that club members only pay in one place, via their club, but recieve all the benefits of DIM membership. It is only available to a CIM member if their club agrees to administer it. CIM+ members can join BCRA.

Edit: Bugger, two more posts whilst typing this novel...