Why do you go caving?

[The Old Ruminator]

I did say that I was odd. As with diving I rarely went on club activities. With diving it was all down to too many rules which does nothing for me. Well I had my new club card and welcome letter today. I do have some old friends there and maybe I have mellowed enough to be a bit more sociable.  :hug:

 

[Kenilworth]

I have never met another group of people like cavers.  I think it is because it isn't really a sport, it is an exploratory activity coupled with an immense amount of science.  Caving is also an inexpensive activity (less so since entrepreneurs realised there was an expanding market) and a great social leveller.  You would think divers would be natural explorers but most I have met have no interest in the marine life they see apart from that they can eat;or they are kit obsessed. It is quite depressing really trying to get them to do anything useful.  Things are improving thanks to organizations like Seasearch. OR will back up me up re divers. He carried on because he got interested in wreck identification.

Caving isn't a sport for sure, but it also isn't necessarily exploratory or scientific. It's whatever you make of it. For the majority it seems to be a recreational activity that sometimes includes exploration and less often, science.

It may be that the societal aspect is different here than in the UK. Cavers here are easy commercial prey, and gear snobbery is rampant. While the act of traversing the cave in company is a "social leveler" of that company, the "caving community" sneers at individuals who operate outside of it, or even within it using "outdated" or "inadequate" or "non-standard" gear or methods. People are drawn to clubs for the same reasons that they are drawn to caves, they are looking for community. It is untrue that common interests create community, but in a fragmented world that's the best that some can get.

 

[alastairgott]

the "caving community" sneers at individuals who operate outside of it, or even within it using "outdated" or "inadequate" or "non-standard" gear or methods.

Guilty! I've done this, nothing wrong with the gear and perfectly serviceable. The guys I did this to were very good to me, and have taught me a lot over the past 4-5months.
It was tongue in cheek, but still below the belt. (With it being on a harness).

Sorry, you know who you are.

 

[NewStuff]

Because I want to. No noble intentions, no getting away from anything, it's just something I want to do. As long as I continue to want to, and am physically able, I'll do it.

As for snobbery? If the kit is safe, and the methods sound, that's fine. I prefer an Anthron descender if I know the rope will be clean. Now, if someone is being dangerous or using cobbled together tat that seems likely to fail, then snobbery is the bare minimum I would be dishing out.

 

[Kenilworth]

Because I want to. No noble intentions, no getting away from anything, it's just something I want to do. As long as I continue to want to, and am physically able, I'll do it.

Quite insightful.
Introspection isn't scary. Or maybe it is.

As for snobbery? If the kit is safe, and the methods sound, that's fine. I prefer an Anthron descender if I know the rope will be clean. Now, if someone is being dangerous or using cobbled together tat that seems likely to fail, then snobbery is the bare minimum I would be dishing out.

The problem with this attitude is the inability of many cavers to judge the adequacy of unfamiliar gear. It is usually the most ignorant person who is the most persnickety about gear. I've had several cavers refuse to use my polyester static rope because it had a patterned sheath and they believed it had to be dynamic. I've had to forcibly carry on caving against the verbal and physical protest of fellow cavers because a sling and two prusiks wasn't good enough for a few 20' climbs. This is one of the reasons that caving with cavers makes me weary.
I believe we should give one another the dignity to make our own choices in this regard. Training beginners is another matter, but eventually we are on our own. And should be. So if Dubya shows up with an Anthron and wants to ride down my rope, I'll be glad to let him, though I have no idea what an Anthron is. Of course if we see something we know to be dangerous, or suspect to be dangerous, kindness would dictate that we discuss it. But not that we "dish out" snobbery or any other blowhard noises.

Concern for safety is not usually behind gear snobbery though. It is simply another form of class distinction. And resentment gets in there too. In my experience a man sweating with enough expensive gear and provisions for nine months in the jungle hates spending fifteen hours surveying with a guy in old jeans and no pack.

 

[PeteHall]

the "caving community" sneers at individuals who operate outside of it, or even within it using "outdated" or "inadequate" or "non-standard" gear or methods.

I wonder what your yank mates and their gear snobbery would have made of the photos of Rick Stanton in Thailand recently with a car inner tube strapped to his back for buoyancy and a homemade line reel made out of plumbing pipe and cable ties?

One of the things I like best about the UK caving community is the lack of gear snobbery. In fact, I tend to hold cavers with the most tattered and improvised gear in the highest of respect. Anyone can go out and buy all the latest kit. It takes experience to adapt and make your own. It takes patience and commitment to repair old kit to keep it going.

I should point out that I am not advocating using worn out or dangerous safety equipment 

 

[Wolfo]

You're from the US, Kenilworth?

I use a lot of selfmade gear on my personal trips. Never had any problems, but I also would never do any trip with notorious worrywards.
Another point is about grotto equipment/rental  or rescue stuff/teams, there I see the strong need of standardized gear.

 

[NewStuff]

I think it's been said - There is not much gear snobbery over here, you make out that the US has a lot of it. You also make out other things that other US cavers flatly refute, so I'll take it with a pinch of salt.

Over here - If it works, it works.

I think most experienced cavers can cast an eye over something and get an inkling about it being suitable or otherwise. If you have a truly novel piece of kit, like the Turbochest when it first came out, you'll get lots of questions. Not snobbery, not "that won't work", but genuine, interested questions. I still get the odd question about the Turbofoot - I'm the only person I know using it, most people haven't seen one before. I've yet to encounter anyone telling me I should stick to a Pantin.