Wonder Cavern, Stoney Middleton - RE Times 1845

[Colin_W]

From The Times from Thursday, Mar 27, 1845 .

"The Capacious cavern in Stoney Middleton Dale known as the the Wonder is now closed up from visitants, probably for ever...........without herculean labour........"

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13769021@N05/2691290805/

Anyone care to identify this ?.......

 

[Mark]

Usually thought to be Carlswark, always referred to as the Wonder Cavern

 

[graham]

As in "I wonder why we bothered!" 

 

[Mark]

As in "I wonder why we bothered!" 

Or "I wonder why we never get any positive comments from Graham"  :tease:

 

[Brendan]

Or 'I wonder why anyone goes to Mendip when there are such fine caves in the Peaks!'

Or more likely because it is on the Wonder mineral vein.

 

[martinb]

Ah! But which entrance were they referring to?

Gin entrance? Probably not.

Resurgence entrance? Unlikely - and is now somewhat smaller (!) than it used to be - apparently it used to be many yards wide by a lot more high!

Or could it be another? Rumours persist that the cave used to go a lot further under Eyam.....to Foolow?

 

[graham]

As in "I wonder why we bothered!" 

Or "I wonder why we never get any positive comments from Graham"  :tease:

There are many splendid caves in the Peak, I have particularly fond memories of Peak Cavern & of Nettle Pot.

 

[MarkC]

Colin,

Carlswark has in the past been referred to as 'The Wonder Cavern'.  It is likely that the entrance your newspaper article refers to is the old Eyam Dale Shaft.  When this was dug by John beck et al. in the 70's they found wooden supports buried in the boulders, suggesting a previous entrance buried by collapse.  However I don't think that such a collapse would have resulted in 'loss' of the cave altogether.  This could just be an error by the journalist.  Dr Short managed a through trip in 1734 and as such one would expect the lower entrance still to be accessible...

Merlin Mine was also a show cave at the time your article was written.  However the Auton Crofts shaft was blocked with slabs and the adit was gated for a time.  There is no obvious place where collapse could have blocked entrance to 'Merlin Cavern'.

Its curious to see that 'loss' of the entrance made national news.  It seems that the caves of the Dale may have been more popular with tourists back then they are today!

Mark

 

[SamT]

Hi Mark

have you seen the thread re the pipe. Are you interested in getting flower pot entrance sorted by replacing them blue barrels.

 

[MarkC]

Hi Sam,

Martin has been in touch regarding this.  Sounds like a good idea on the grounds of safety.  I tried to get through the barrels a few weeks ago.  My chest wouldn't quite fit through the squashed barrel and getting back out wasn't much fun either!  There are a couple of more pressing issues which could also do with my attention (such as the the old shafts into Carlswark and Streaks upper entrance), however these being DCA projects the progress has been rather slow.  I'd be happy to help with Flower Pot in the mean time.

Perhaps we could organise some sort of Stoney Middleton Dale cave conservation working group?  The conservation audit that I'm currently preparing for the DCA has identified plenty of issues which will also need addressing at some point!  Getting funding for materials shouldn't be a problem, its just a case of organising the manpower.  Any volunteers for this would be most welcome...

Mark

 

[martinb]

Perhaps we could organise some sort of Stoney Middleton Dale cave conservation working group?  The conservation audit that I'm currently preparing for the DCA has identified plenty of issues which will also need addressing at some point!  Getting funding for materials shouldn't be a problem, its just a case of organising the manpower.  Any volunteers for this would be most welcome...

Mark

Count me in Mark. 

Martin

 

[Mrs Trellis]

Re-reading the short article I have doubts that this is either Carlswark and Merlin's.  My guess is that it was a kind of Sidetrack with a horizontal passage leading to a large phreatic decorated cavern and the entrance was "protected" from further quarrying operation by the wooden supports.

Are there any records of where quarrying took place in the mid 18th C when the cavern was discovered?

Anyone know what volume of limestone makes "many tons" (sic) ?

 

[caving_fox]

Anyone know what volume of limestone makes "many tons" (sic) ?

A quick google gives the density varying between about 1.8-2.7 g/cm^3, ie a 1m cube will weigh about 2 metric tonnes. So depending on 'many' the answer is not that much.

 

[JonP]

Hi Sam,

Martin has been in touch regarding this.  Sounds like a good idea on the grounds of safety.  I tried to get through the barrels a few weeks ago.  My chest wouldn't quite fit through the squashed barrel and getting back out wasn't much fun either!  There are a couple of more pressing issues which could also do with my attention (such as the the old shafts into Carlswark and Streaks upper entrance), however these being DCA projects the progress has been rather slow.  I'd be happy to help with Flower Pot in the mean time.

Perhaps we could organise some sort of Stoney Middleton Dale cave conservation working group?  The conservation audit that I'm currently preparing for the DCA has identified plenty of issues which will also need addressing at some point!  Getting funding for materials shouldn't be a problem, its just a case of organising the manpower.  Any volunteers for this would be most welcome...

Mark

count me and my lot in (SamP & Jams) its our most common entrance into Carlswalk.

 

[SamT]

Hi Sam,

Martin has been in touch regarding this.  Sounds like a good idea on the grounds of safety.  I tried to get through the barrels a few weeks ago.  My chest wouldn't quite fit through the squashed barrel and getting back out wasn't much fun either!  There are a couple of more pressing issues which could also do with my attention (such as the the old shafts into Carlswark and Streaks upper entrance), however these being DCA projects the progress has been rather slow.  I'd be happy to help with Flower Pot in the mean time.

Perhaps we could organise some sort of Stoney Middleton Dale cave conservation working group?  The conservation audit that I'm currently preparing for the DCA has identified plenty of issues which will also need addressing at some point!  Getting funding for materials shouldn't be a problem, its just a case of organising the manpower.  Any volunteers for this would be most welcome...

Mark

It seems that we have the materials - curtsey of the Crewe, and the volunteers.

MartinB, Dangerous brothers, MarkC

Now all someone needs is to set a date.

 

[martinb]

Hi Sam,

Martin has been in touch regarding this.  Sounds like a good idea on the grounds of safety.  I tried to get through the barrels a few weeks ago.  My chest wouldn't quite fit through the squashed barrel and getting back out wasn't much fun either!  There are a couple of more pressing issues which could also do with my attention (such as the the old shafts into Carlswark and Streaks upper entrance), however these being DCA projects the progress has been rather slow.  I'd be happy to help with Flower Pot in the mean time.

Perhaps we could organise some sort of Stoney Middleton Dale cave conservation working group?  The conservation audit that I'm currently preparing for the DCA has identified plenty of issues which will also need addressing at some point!  Getting funding for materials shouldn't be a problem, its just a case of organising the manpower.  Any volunteers for this would be most welcome...

Mark

It seems that we have the materials - curtsey of the Crewe, and the volunteers.

MartinB, Dangerous brothers, MarkC

Now all someone needs is to set a date.

I'm meeting up with MarkC on (probably) Friday and (hopefully) Sunday, so we'll discuss and post when a date is set.

Martin

 

[MarkC]

Re-reading the short article I have doubts that this is either Carlswark and Merlin's.  My guess is that it was a kind of Sidetrack with a horizontal passage leading to a large phreatic decorated cavern and the entrance was "protected" from further quarrying operation by the wooden supports.

I have recently acquired a rare copy of Short's 1734 work.  Reading his description of 'Bamforth Hole' I was reminded of this thread.  This description does not in any way match the Bamforth Hole in the large open scrin a little further along from the Carlswark Gin Entrance (I believe this error has been corrected in the new edition of COTPD).  However, extend the Gin Entrance by a mined level 10 yards further to the west, at a slightly lower level (approximately 13 yards lower, with a 6 foot ?step? to emerge in the cave) and this would very closely match Short?s description, albeit the fine formations he describes in what is now known as Oyster Chamber have long gone!  At the time of writing Short would not have known that this 'Wonder Cavern' as it would later come to be known, was also part of the 'Charleswork' (resurgence) that he also described.  For it would have been later in the 18th Century that the ?basin? in Oyster chamber was blasted to create the connection, as the shot holes there point to this slightly later technology.

Short also mentions that the cave emerges by one of its grottos in Eyam Dale (he didn?t undertake a through trip as I had previously posted).  It would be interesting to find a record of the collapse of the original Eyam Dale shaft, although I suspect such a record does not exist, as it would be unlikely that Nineteenth Century tourists would have used such an entrance?

Thoughts anyone?

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

  At the time of writing Short would not have known that this 'Wonder Cavern' as it would later come to be known, was also part of the 'Charleswork' (resurgence) that he also described.  For it would have been later in the 18th Century that the ?basin? in Oyster chamber was blasted to create the connection, as the shot holes there point to this slightly later technology.

I hope I am not the only Derbyshire caver who has been through Oyster Chamber dozens of times in the last 40 years without noticing shot holes. Or who didn`t know the connection with the resurgence was not a natural one. It looks like I ought to find out more about the history of Carlswark and I would appreciate any suitable references.

 

[MarkC]

John Becks thesis is available online I believe. Uni of Leicester?k

I' can post a pic of the shot holes  as I've taken some for the DCA audit.  The connection is natural, as this Is the capture point between the carlswark complex and the resurgence, but is through bolders and flowtone so would have had to have been blasted to be passable.

The main point I was trying to make is that the article appears to refer to an old lower Gin entrance, and that Carlswark was once a well decorated 'wonderous' cavern

Mark

 

[MarkC]

https://lra.le.ac.uk/handle/2381/7561