Author Topic: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things  (Read 123318 times)

Offline Cookie

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #500 on: March 28, 2013, 01:21:45 pm »
i took up the sugestion of going to a BCA council meeting once to argue a point re the way BCRA membership is organised and to argue for free or vastly reduced insurance for under 16s on the basis of their negligable liabilty risk. jesus christ what a minefeild caving politics turns out to be there are more personal agendas in british caving than you can shake a stick at i rememer my overwhelming impression of the event being f@ck this for a laugh no wonder hardly anyone wants to get involved its not a particulalry pleasent or productive experiance and who on earth cares if IT is maniged by a working party or a sub commitee though this seemed to be the bigest issue in british caving at the time.

But by making the effort to turn up, you substantially got what you wanted on both of the issues you raised.

Dave Cooke. BCA: IT Working Party Convenor, Web Services

Offline NigR

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #501 on: March 28, 2013, 01:25:41 pm »
whilst im sure ill be told its a wild conspiracy theory i realy dont think from what ive seen of caving politics that it is at all unlikley that the main reason for activly maintaining regional access restricitions that require BCA membership is to protect revenue for the BCA insurance scheme which is fine i just wish they would be open about what theyre doing and why.

Tread carefully, Ian - you might be getting just a little bit close to the truth here.

Offline Jenny P

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #502 on: March 28, 2013, 01:30:27 pm »
I suspect Ian is confusing BCRA membership with BCA membership here?

Under-16's do have a reduced insurance contribution.  The problem is not that they could be sued for causing the landowner problems, rather that, just like anyone else, if a problem is caused by anyone at all the landowner will incur expense in trying to sort it out, even if he is not liable.  That is why BCA issues landowner certificates so that landowners will be confident that they will not have to suffer any expense through no fault of their own. 

The other point is that for the BCA insurance to be effective it is a requirement of the insurers, NOT of BCA, that all cavers who are members of BCA must be covered by the insurance.  That includes non-caving members of caving clubs as well.  BCA can, and does, vary the payment to be made according to whether the insured is a caver, non-caver, student caver, etc.

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #503 on: March 28, 2013, 01:39:18 pm »
Snap time's over, so I'm back, briefly.

Ian - you're a scientist aren't you? Are you really drawing conclusions from just a single experience? It's not really a comprehensive set of data is it?

Seems to me this long discussion isn't leading very far. If there are forum contributors who are motivated enough seriously to want to bring about change then go to the relevant meeting, with a formal proposal, having jumped through any hoops which are needed (yes - "sigh") - then you CANNOT be ignored. Play your cards right then those "rules" you dislike so much will actually be your greatest ally.

This forum is not used by anywhere near all of the British caving poulation, so it's fine for idle chat but it's not the place for big decisions to be made as it's not genuinely representative of all cavers. This comment is not meant as criticism of anybody - more as a suggestion for how to go about achieving objectives, if serious about them.

We have loads of common ground - we all enjoy our caving, for a start off. People like Badlad are clearly passionate about it. But sometimes it's useful to pause and analyse exactly what has to be done to get what you want, together with contemplating any possible unwanted side effects which might result.

I'd better get some work done . . . .

Offline NewStuff

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #504 on: March 28, 2013, 01:46:16 pm »
Wild accusations about North Wales

Drop the Wild, and I'll happily participate in a new thread. Nothing I have read in this thread about N.Wales is in any way inaccurate. It *is* that bad here, and likely to get worse before (if?) it get's better. Drop a link to the new thread in here.

That said, the intention of this thread, unless I've managed to miss something, is about extending CRoW to cover caves on land covered by that act.
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Offline danthecavingman

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #505 on: March 28, 2013, 01:47:01 pm »
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/37/contents

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/Images/definitionopenaccess_tcm6-10166.pdf

Rights of public in relation to access land..

(1)Any person is entitled by virtue of this subsection to enter and remain on any access land for the purposes of open-air recreation, if and so long as— .
(a)he does so without breaking or damaging any wall, fence, hedge, stile or gate, and .
(b)he observes the general restrictions in Schedule 2 and any other restrictions imposed in relation to the land under Chapter II. .

SCHEDULE 2 Restrictions to be observed by persons exercising right of access

 General restrictions

1Section 2(1) does not entitle a person to be on any land if, in or on that land, he—.
(a)drives or rides any vehicle other than an invalid carriage as defined by section 20(2) of the M1Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970,.
(b)uses a vessel or sailboard on any non-tidal water,.
(c)has with him any animal other than a dog,.
(d)commits any criminal offence,.
(e)lights or tends a fire or does any act which is likely to cause a fire,.
(f)intentionally or recklessly takes, kills, injures or disturbs any animal, bird or fish,.
(g)intentionally or recklessly takes, damages or destroys any eggs or nests,.
(h)feeds any livestock,.
(i)bathes in any non-tidal water,.
(j)engages in any operations of or connected with hunting, shooting, fishing, trapping, snaring, taking or destroying of animals, birds or fish or has with him any engine, instrument or apparatus used for hunting, shooting, fishing, trapping, snaring, taking or destroying animals, birds or fish,.
(k)uses or has with him any metal detector,.
(l)intentionally removes, damages or destroys any plant, shrub, tree or root or any part of a plant, shrub, tree or root,.
(m)obstructs the flow of any drain or watercourse, or opens, shuts or otherwise interferes with any sluice-gate or other apparatus,.
(n)without reasonable excuse, interferes with any fence, barrier or other device designed to prevent accidents to people or to enclose livestock,.
(o)neglects to shut any gate or to fasten it where any means of doing so is provided, except where it is reasonable to assume that a gate is intended to be left open,.
(p)affixes or writes any advertisement, bill, placard or notice,.
(q)in relation to any lawful activity which persons are engaging in or are about to engage in on that or adjoining land, does anything which is intended by him to have the effect—.
(i)of intimidating those persons so as to deter them or any of them from engaging in that activity,.
(ii)of obstructing that activity, or.
(iii)of disrupting that activity,.
(r)without reasonable excuse, does anything which (whether or not intended by him to have the effect mentioned in paragraph (q)) disturbs, annoys or obstructs any persons engaged in a lawful activity on the land,.
(s)engages in any organised games, or in camping, hang-gliding or para-gliding, or.
(t)engages in any activity which is organised or undertaken (whether by him or another) for any commercial purpose.

I would argue that caving is most definitely open air recreation. Providing that access is made on foot, I don't see that there is a restriction. It seems ridiculous that you can walk to a cave entrance anywhere on CROW land but then not be allowed to enter the cave. It is my suspiscion that the reason no-one has challenged the access agreements is for fear of losing those agreements - restrictive agreements that may not be legally enforceable. It needs a test case - someone to walk over to Lost Johns (say) and proceed to enter the cave without a permit claiming access as per the CROW Act. If the landowner were present and to object, it would appear that as things stand he couldn't stop you provided you were in compliance with Schedule 2 restrictions. It would then surely be up to the Land Owner to push for exclusion of caving on his land via legal means, and I can't imagine that anyone would be bothered to go to the cost and trouble of fighting through the courts to stop a few potholers disappearing underground out of harm's way.
It seems that fear of land owner reprisals and denial of access based on past arrangements is the problem here- if activities upset the land owner pre CROW then he could legally deny access to cavers who would be trespassing if they went onto the said land without permission.
What's the worst that could happen now? The landowner refuses to issue any more permits? Under CROW you don't need a permit.....

Apologies if I have over simplified this or missed earlier postings that may mean I'm way off the mark.

Dan.
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Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #506 on: March 28, 2013, 01:54:00 pm »
Excellent post Dan and very well presented.

It has also not gone un-noticed that the following issues were ignored previously which stand "side-by-side to Dan's post;



I will point out that BCA and CNCC are run by cavers and are democratic organisations.

With regards to CNCC, is that "true" ?   Could a non-northern caving club join ?   Can an individual join ?  Is there a pre-requiste (like there is with the PDCMG) before you can join ?

In any event, why is there even any resistence to the suggestion of CRoW being a mechanism for cavers to access caves in the Dales ?   Wouldn't it make life easier for the CNCC and their volunteers ?     Doesn't it (CRoW) provide automatic liability cover for landowners ?    Isn't it a Win/
Win scenario ?

And ... why should some HAVE TO BE a BCA member to enter a cave in the Dales ?  That isn't just (prima facie) elitist but it is also "unknown" to a new adventurer beginning their life of underworld exploration ....

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Offline NigR

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #507 on: March 28, 2013, 01:59:29 pm »
This forum is not used by anywhere near all of the British caving poulation, so it's fine for idle chat but it's not the place for big decisions to be made as it's not genuinely representative of all cavers. This comment is not meant as criticism of anybody - more as a suggestion for how to go about achieving objectives, if serious about them.

We have loads of common ground - we all enjoy our caving, for a start off. People like Badlad are clearly passionate about it. But sometimes it's useful to pause and analyse exactly what has to be done to get what you want, together with contemplating any possible unwanted side effects which might result.

In other words, keep quiet and don't rock the boat!

Sorry, Pitlamp, but you really will have to do much better than that.

Offline Jenny P

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #508 on: March 28, 2013, 02:02:33 pm »
Re. the complaints about access in North Wales:

The Cambrian Caving Council Constitution states:

4.2  That the owners and tenants of property containing caves, have the right to grant or withhold access. Where clubs, singly or jointly, have control of access delegated to them by the owners, such access should be obtained and granted as freely as possible for responsible cavers, within the terms of those agreements. When obliged to make new agreements, the appropriate body should endeavour to ensure that this freedom is maintained and improved.

CCC does not itself enter into any access agreements, instead it leaves this to clubs or to specially constituted 'cave management groups'.  If it is felt that access is being denied or obstructed in some way by the relevant organisation and you get no result from taking it up with them, then the next call should be to CCC to complain about this. 

Note that, although CRoW does apply in Wales, there is a separate body: 'Countryside Council for Wales' which takes the place of Natural England.

Offline blackholesun

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #509 on: March 28, 2013, 02:03:26 pm »
I agree that it appears be open air recreation and thus covered.

Dan, am I right in thinking that you are suggesting someone should undergo an organised, deliberate, probably publicized 'trespass'?

If so, the worst case scenario is that it goes to court, caving turns out not to be covered, landowner/caver relations are destroyed and at least one area would be rendered off limits to cavers for years.

The best case is that all the relevant landowners acknowledge the CROW rights and allow us to cave in the way that they allow hikers to walk and climbers to climb.

There are certainly scenarios in between. By all means, if you do this, let us know how it works out for you. But until then, think it through as this is an act that could have huge consequences.

Offline estelle

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #510 on: March 28, 2013, 02:12:17 pm »
Something that has become clear from this thread is that different access issues (or perceptions of access issues often seen from people who don't live in that region!) vary wildly based on region and it's got harder and harder to keep track of what we are talking about on such a broad thread now on 21 pages and drifting between regional issues and CRoW. I do think as someone suggested earlier, it might be better to have some split threads to specifically cover each of the regions access issues and perhaps one dedicated to just CRoW.
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Offline ian.p

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #511 on: March 28, 2013, 02:14:32 pm »
Quote
BCRA membership with BCA membership here?


I am not or id have looked rather silly at that particular meeting its for a different thread but the nescesity for CIM+ or DIM BCA membership to join the BCRA is realy quite counterproductive.

Pitlamp:no ive had a lot of direct conversations and smaller meetings with varios officers from CNCC, BCA and other groups yes its had some affect but i think getting anything done is best described as like trying to walk through treacle and feels like a war of attrition id very much encourage other people to get involved if i had a slightly more static life where i could attend more meetings id probably offer to take on a role however as badlad says there are other worthwhile things to do in british caving and id rather spend my time directly taking new people caving and pushing projects untill my knees stop working at which point ill probably offer to take on a council position.

I also feel that these sorts of open forums are an equaly valid place to discuss issues at all levells whilst not all cavers are represented there are more cavers represented hear than at council they all have an equal voice theres plenty of time for thought and could be better used by regional bodys/BCA to consult the caving comunity before making desicisons or releasing statements so that they do actualy represent cavers not just the veiws of a small council.

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #512 on: March 28, 2013, 02:14:40 pm »
I can think of several clubs which would consider supporting the idea of a trespass as acting against the interests of their clubs, with all the potential consequences for those members.


Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #513 on: March 28, 2013, 02:15:40 pm »
This forum is not used by anywhere near all of the British caving poulation, so it's fine for idle chat but it's not the place for big decisions to be made as it's not genuinely representative of all cavers. This comment is not meant as criticism of anybody - more as a suggestion for how to go about achieving objectives, if serious about them.

We have loads of common ground - we all enjoy our caving, for a start off. People like Badlad are clearly passionate about it. But sometimes it's useful to pause and analyse exactly what has to be done to get what you want, together with contemplating any possible unwanted side effects which might result.

In other words, keep quiet and don't rock the boat!

Sorry, Pitlamp, but you really will have to do much better than that.

Really? Why?

Offline langcliffe

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #514 on: March 28, 2013, 02:16:46 pm »
What's the worst that could happen now? The landowner refuses to issue any more permits? Under CROW you don't need a permit.....

In the case of caves included in SSSI scheduling, quite a lot. The land owner is the guy responsible for ensuring that the caves are not damaged, and if the only way he can do that is to block access to the cave then presumably that is what he'll do. I can also imagine that the land owner may be encouraged by Natural England to only allow a limited number of trips into such caves by experienced cavers.

Offline danthecavingman

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #515 on: March 28, 2013, 02:22:48 pm »

Dan, am I right in thinking that you are suggesting someone should undergo an organised, deliberate, probably publicized 'trespass'?


Absolutely not. No, that would be in nobodys interests. I am suggesting that if someone were to go caving on CROW land where there was an 'access agreement' with the Land Owner - i.e. permits for caving - and that they were challenged by the Land Owner the they could claim CROW access and the Land Owner would be powerless to stop them.

I quote again the CROW Act Schedule 2 sections q and r

(q)in relation to any lawful activity which persons are engaging in or are about to engage in on that or adjoining land, does anything which is intended by him to have the effect—.
(i)of intimidating those persons so as to deter them or any of them from engaging in that activity,.
(ii)of obstructing that activity, or.
(iii)of disrupting that activity,.
(r)without reasonable excuse, does anything which (whether or not intended by him to have the effect mentioned in paragraph (q)) disturbs, annoys or obstructs any persons engaged in a lawful activity on the land,.

This clearly states that if persons (cavers) are carrying out lawful open-air recreation (caving) on that, or adjoining land, then the CROW Act gives them legal protection from being deterred from going caving, or in fact being disturbed, annoyed or obstructed whilst caving.


The best case is that all the relevant landowners acknowledge the CROW rights and allow us to cave in the way that they allow hikers to walk and climbers to climb.


This is what I am hanging my hat on - that Land Owners 'get over' the past and the control they had over cavers and accept that along with walking and climbing, that caving is a perfectly legitimate open air recreational activity over which they have no control. And the fact that folk may need rescuing or anything else is irrelevant as climbers and walkers would also require rescuing if they had an accident.

Caving is still lurking in the shadows of darker days gone by when there were a lot of accidents and access was granted and lost on the whim of a farmer or land owner because they felt inconvenienced by 'bloody pot-holers'.


Dan.

P.S. The issue with canoeing / kayaking should not be brought into this arguement either, as it is far more complicated and mostly not CROW related but a totally separate issue.
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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #516 on: March 28, 2013, 02:28:01 pm »
Quote
BCRA membership with BCA membership here?


I am not or id have looked rather silly at that particular meeting its for a different thread but the nescesity for CIM+ or DIM BCA membership to join the BCRA is realy quite counterproductive.

Pitlamp:no ive had a lot of direct conversations and smaller meetings with varios officers from CNCC, BCA and other groups yes its had some affect but i think getting anything done is best described as like trying to walk through treacle and feels like a war of attrition id very much encourage other people to get involved if i had a slightly more static life where i could attend more meetings id probably offer to take on a role however as badlad says there are other worthwhile things to do in british caving and id rather spend my time directly taking new people caving and pushing projects untill my knees stop working at which point ill probably offer to take on a council position.

I also feel that these sorts of open forums are an equaly valid place to discuss issues at all levells whilst not all cavers are represented there are more cavers represented hear than at council they all have an equal voice theres plenty of time for thought and could be better used by regional bodys/BCA to consult the caving comunity before making desicisons or releasing statements so that they do actualy represent cavers not just the veiws of a small council.

Of course they're a valid place to have discussions. But not "equally" because they have no mandate to act on cavers' collective behalf, unlike an organisation such as CNCC. There are many stakeholders in the outcomes of this discussion who are conspicuous by their absence from this discussion (for whatever reason) as Badlad has rightly pointed out.

If you want change you have to have solid foundations. To build those foundations usually needs a bit more effort than a few throwaway comments on an internet forum.

I'm really not criticising anyone here - I'm just trying to help some folk realise there's a right way and an unsuccessful way to try to get what they want. That's life, I'm afraid.

Offline danthecavingman

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #517 on: March 28, 2013, 02:31:33 pm »
What's the worst that could happen now? The landowner refuses to issue any more permits? Under CROW you don't need a permit.....

In the case of caves included in SSSI scheduling, quite a lot. The land owner is the guy responsible for ensuring that the caves are not damaged, and if the only way he can do that is to block access to the cave then presumably that is what he'll do. I can also imagine that the land owner may be encouraged by Natural England to only allow a limited number of trips into such caves by experienced cavers.

As long as the cavers were not doing any of the restricted activities listed in Schedule 2 then they would not be conceivably damaging an SSSI. I do not believe that 'caving' in its everyday meaning means damage to an SSSI. Digging, modifying watercourses etc, yes - they are restricted by Schedule 2. But not just going on a caving trip. Does a Land owner have to stop walkers entering and walking across SSSI land. No. I don't believe so but I may be wrong. Are climbers forbidden to climb crags in an SSSI. No. I don't believe so. Are cavers forbidden to cave in an SSSI. No......

Dan.
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Offline blackholesun

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #518 on: March 28, 2013, 02:36:45 pm »
Lancliffe: Perhaps. As Jenny says, N.E. haven't ever recommended any restriction to any caves on CROW land. The landowner would presumably need some evidence to show the caves were being damaged, and for most SSSI caves, you need to apply to modify the cave entrance. It just seems a little unlikely that a landowner would try restrict access through SSSI legislation.

I agree with all of your post Dan. However, do cavers ever meet the landowner on a trip? It certainly isn't common. Going caving without a permit but a copy of CROW for years in the hope of bumping into the landowner seems a little inefficient.

Clarification, or a precedent or advice surely needs to be found somewhere other than chance encounters.

Offline danthecavingman

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #519 on: March 28, 2013, 02:42:52 pm »
What's the worst that could happen now? The landowner refuses to issue any more permits? Under CROW you don't need a permit.....

In the case of caves included in SSSI scheduling, quite a lot. The land owner is the guy responsible for ensuring that the caves are not damaged, and if the only way he can do that is to block access to the cave then presumably that is what he'll do. I can also imagine that the land owner may be encouraged by Natural England to only allow a limited number of trips into such caves by experienced cavers.

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/conservation/designations/sssi/owneroccupierinfo.aspx

"What are my responsibilities as a SSSI owner/occupier?

Giving notice
 The SSSI notification package includes a list of operations requiring Natural England's consent (formerly known as operations likely to damage the special interest). None of the listed operations can be carried out without Natural England’s consent, or the consent of another public body (provided that the other body has formally consulted us).

Therefore, if operations are not already consented, you need to submit written notice: (139kb) containing the details of the operations you wish to carry out to your local Natural England office. This applies if you wish to undertake any of these operations yourself or you plan to allow others to carry them out.

What will happen if the special interest feature of my SSSI is damaged?

It is an offence for any person to intentionally or recklessly damage or destroy any of the features of special interest of an SSSI, or to disturb wildlife for which the site was notified.

It is an offence for owners and occupiers to carry out or allow to be carried out, operations listed in the notification without our consent.

If you own or manage a SSSI that is being damaged by other people, our local conservation staff will be pleased to advise you on what can be done to resolve the situation."


So, if caving is not already prohibited by the SSSI notification, then there is no issue here. Presumably the fact that the caves are already used for recreational caving means that caving is not a restricted activity therefore the Land Owner is under no obligation to stop cavers caving.

I add the following quote from the Natural England website -

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/access/openaccess/default.aspx

Open Access land

Under the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 (CROW), the public can walk freely on mapped areas of mountain, moor, heath, downland and registered common land without having to stick to paths.

People across England now have approximately 865,000 hectares of land across which they can walk, ramble, run, explore, climb and watch wildlife as they are given the freedom to access land, without having to stay on paths.

The new rights, for which people have been campaigning for over 100 years, came into effect across all of England on 31 October 2005.

Dan.
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Offline NigR

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #520 on: March 28, 2013, 02:53:56 pm »
This forum is not used by anywhere near all of the British caving poulation, so it's fine for idle chat but it's not the place for big decisions to be made as it's not genuinely representative of all cavers. This comment is not meant as criticism of anybody - more as a suggestion for how to go about achieving objectives, if serious about them.

We have loads of common ground - we all enjoy our caving, for a start off. People like Badlad are clearly passionate about it. But sometimes it's useful to pause and analyse exactly what has to be done to get what you want, together with contemplating any possible unwanted side effects which might result.

In other words, keep quiet and don't rock the boat!

Sorry, Pitlamp, but you really will have to do much better than that.

Really? Why?


Because you are not being very successful are you?

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Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #521 on: March 28, 2013, 02:54:11 pm »
Re. the complaints about access in North Wales:

The Cambrian Caving Council Constitution states:

4.2  That the owners and tenants of property containing caves, have the right to grant or withhold access. Where clubs, singly or jointly, have control of access delegated to them by the owners, such access should be obtained and granted as freely as possible for responsible cavers, within the terms of those agreements. When obliged to make new agreements, the appropriate body should endeavour to ensure that this freedom is maintained and improved.

CCC does not itself enter into any access agreements, instead it leaves this to clubs or to specially constituted 'cave management groups'.  If it is felt that access is being denied or obstructed in some way by the relevant organisation and you get no result from taking it up with them, then the next call should be to CCC to complain about this. 

Note that, although CRoW does apply in Wales, there is a separate body: 'Countryside Council for Wales' which takes the place of Natural England.

Jenny,

Thanks for this ....

We are all aware of it and, further, the BCA insurance scheme (I think) requires members to allow other members access.

The "formal" routes are hopeless, these clubs are our neighbours and "telling tales to teacher" doesn't do anyone any favours (or make any progress). These clubs would not grant access even if the CCC told them to. Furthermore, a lot of people who want access are not members of any club (why should they be?) and their only recourse is to go directly to the landowner (which they have and which has caused significant trouble) or rip off gates in pure frustration (which thay also have done and which has also, obviously, caused trouble).

I wish it was as simple as "do as you are told" but it isn't.

No need to discuss North Wales (specifically) any further, it is a distraction to the main thread - but thanks for your input.

 :)

Ian
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Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #522 on: March 28, 2013, 03:06:54 pm »
Apart from the fact that the BCA will likely react negatively and some power-controlling bodies will scream "unfair ref!", I can't see any flaw in Dan's argument at all ....

Best post(s) to date on this issue in my opinion.

 :)

Ian
A door, once opened, may be stepped through in either direction.

Offline Badlad

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #523 on: March 28, 2013, 03:28:30 pm »
.... am I right in thinking that you are suggesting someone should undergo an organised, deliberate, probably publicized 'trespass'?

If so, the worst case scenario is that it goes to court, caving turns out not to be covered, landowner/caver relations are destroyed and at least one area would be rendered off limits to cavers for years.



I have an experience that is similar to the above. 

Before the final Three Counties Connection the media got very interested in the story as you may remember.  The BBC came up to Leck Fell to film for the day.  We informed the Estate Office of what we were doing and the agent came up to the fell to visit us.  We had some pleasant exchanges and carried on.  After completing the surface stuff we took presenter Richard Westcott down Notts 2 and showed him the dig.  We did this in full view of the agent and without a CNCC permit.  A few days later the footage appeared on BBC Breakfast television in front of 2.5 million viewers, where they had repeated live interviews up to Richard and the cavers on Leck Fell.  We had no permit and received no complaints from the estate office.

There have been some great posts in recent pages and I hope this forum could initiate some wider action on the issue of open access to CRoW land.  My interest is to persuade the CNCC to be more vigorous in their dealings with the landowners and less punitive when they catch a couple of defenseless, young university cavers under Casterton Fell.


Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #524 on: March 28, 2013, 03:40:14 pm »
....  My interest is to persuade the CNCC to be more vigorous in their dealings with the landowners and less punitive when they catch a couple of defenseless, young university cavers under Casterton Fell.

.... and wouldn't their job be much easier if they only had to worry about non-CRoW land ?
 
:)

Ian
A door, once opened, may be stepped through in either direction.

 

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