Loss of cave access, CROW and other things

[graham]

Caves on the otherhand tend to be made from Rock which is much harder than grass ...

Don't the caves in your part of the world contain sediments or delicate minerals?

[Alex]

Yep in places but often not as most are stream-washed. In any case applying your same analogy where you are saying spreading out reduces the damage, then why are we taping these sediments and walking over one bit. (This is a rhetorical question, as I know the answer)

But basically your analogy don't work, especially when the other point is taken into account where the increase in traffic would be minimal.

[langcliffe]

Yep in places but often not as most are stream-washed.

The majority of known cave passage in Yorkshire is either fossil or contains only a misfit stream.

[bob monkhouses face mole]

Surely the best defence in terms of conservation of special sites is to know what the level of exposure is? Is it open access or is it access controlled? Does CRoW apply or not?

[RobinGriffiths]

Jenny, despite linking to that document, I'm cautious about it and may not have described it originally correctly. N.E. have replied to me to say that:
"Therefore it is fair to say that the consultant [who wrote it] didn’t express solely their opinion or that of DEFRA or Natural England."

He/she must have been a consultant and a half though. There was even a flowchart investigating the projected degree of ground trampling down to 12inches, or whatever it was.

[NigR]

Use your imagination, Stu. It's not rocket science

I'm fairly certain given Graham's proclivities he's referring to Concrete

Do you really think so?

How about heavily armed Einzatzgruppen patrolling both above and below ground keeping a lookout for any foolish Untermenschen (i.e. ordinary cavers) who might dare to venture forth without their precious permits? Much more effective in the long run.

[bograt]

Lets keep it English, we are talking about English ( Or at least British) !!!. caves.
(unless NigR wants to go Kraut, in which case I suggest an intervention is indicated  )

[Pete K]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

[Jopo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Where do people find the time to come across stuff like this?

 Brilliant!

Jopo

[paul]

Another issue to add to the mix regarding access and CROW:

Kate Ashbrook warns Kinder meeting of plans for new criminal trespass law.

[troll]

If this topic were presented to the Victorians they'd probably comment to the effect of....."Yeah right mate.....you go and have another puff on your opium pipe and we'll see you in wonderland for a cup of tea.."
 If it wern't for the intrepid rambling feats of this era then no one would be rambling in the first place,Ordnance Survey wouldn't be on the map, and there would still be local argument as to whether or not it is a hill or a mountain,Geologists would be wandering around "..er I think this rock's different.."..."maybe god created this one on the fourth day.."
 Get the drift.
 What the government should be doing is subsidizing the farmer to encourage the use of land passage,'cos however you look at it criminalizing people for a pastime just aint on.
 Bear in mind that the "outdoor persuit" industry is HUGE and the knock on effect of zero sales would be of massive detriment to the "economy" to say nothing of the impact it would have on the local economies for (obviously) rural areas.
 Guidelines could be in place ensuring safe passage - from both sides.
 If not for the intrepid explorer,inquisitor,or like myself.....just plain curious then we'd still think the Sun revolved around the Earth and CROW is a black feathered bird....that goes where it pleases.If I comes down from London....ask them about the Wombles

[Pitlamp]

Yep in places but often not as most are stream-washed.

The majority of known cave passage in Yorkshire is either fossil or contains only a misfit stream.

Out of interest, what evidence is there for this comment? (Just genuinely interested whether some robust statistics support it, as it'd be useful to know about in future. Or does it depend to a large extent on what one considers to be a "misfit" stream?)

[langcliffe]

Out of interest, what evidence is there for this comment? (Just genuinely interested whether some robust statistics support it, as it'd be useful to know about in future. Or does it depend to a large extent on what one considers to be a "misfit" stream?)

A fair question. I'll reply when I get back from caving.

[Jenny P]

Another issue to add to the mix regarding access and CROW:

Kate Ashbrook warns Kinder meeting of plans for new criminal trespass law.

This has the potential to be really serious and we need to follow up on this and make sure that it is firmly stamped on.  (I wouldn't mind betting that this emanates from the CLA, who have never become reconciled with the CRoW legislation.) 

There are any number of cave sites which are not on CRoW land but where the current landowner really isn't bothered about people caving on his land and doesn't require permits, advance permission, etc.  However, if the land is sold on to someone with other ideas, access could be lost by default.  Yet another worry!

[Alex]

If this topic were presented to the Victorians they'd probably comment to the effect of....."Yeah right mate.....you go and have another puff on your opium pipe and we'll see you in wonderland for a cup of tea.."
 If it wern't for the intrepid rambling feats of this era then no one would be rambling in the first place,Ordnance Survey wouldn't be on the map, and there would still be local argument as to whether or not it is a hill or a mountain,Geologists would be wandering around "..er I think this rock's different.."..."maybe god created this one on the fourth day.."
 Get the drift.
 What the government should be doing is subsidizing the farmer to encourage the use of land passage,'cos however you look at it criminalizing people for a pastime just aint on.
 Bear in mind that the "outdoor persuit" industry is HUGE and the knock on effect of zero sales would be of massive detriment to the "economy" to say nothing of the impact it would have on the local economies for (obviously) rural areas.
 Guidelines could be in place ensuring safe passage - from both sides.
 If not for the intrepid explorer,inquisitor,or like myself.....just plain curious then we'd still think the Sun revolved around the Earth and CROW is a black feathered bird....that goes where it pleases.If I comes down from London....ask them about the Wombles

The problem is as I found out recently no matter how reasoned the above argument is (it is well reasoned) the govement will likely not change thier minds. The reason, fingers in the pies! A lot of them will have a lot to gain from increased development in the form of payoffs from developers or just increased revenue from a company they run. This is why they are all into compitition in the NHS as they stand alot of them stand to gain from that too.

[Jenny P]

Please note that the report of the BCA CRoW Working Group has just been sent to the BCA Secretary and to all regions so that you have a chance to read it before the BCA AGM on 22nd. June.

It should be posted on the BCA website shortly.

Jenny Potts
Convenor, CRoW Working Group

[damian]

It should be posted on the BCA website shortly.

.. and sure enough ... direct link to document.

[NigR]

A most interesting read, clearly representing a lot of effort on the part of Jenny, Bob and all their helpers.

Congratulations to all concerned.