Author Topic: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments  (Read 22860 times)

Offline Bob Mehew

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If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« on: August 08, 2014, 02:35:30 pm »
I have been working of recent on investigating the impact if CRoW applies to caving.  It is limited to looking at the various powers which can be employed  to provide for access control if CRoW does apply to caving.  Whilst it looks at categories of caves, it does not consider any specific cave.  Hence I have not posted it within the still open thread on CRoW Sec 26.  I have also included a comment about the release of the 'instructions' which may be of interest to some.  A copy of this work which I have forwarded to the C&A Convenor for consideration at next week's C&A meeting on the 16th can be found at https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0RTfmWzkLQMVlFMMFhBWkozdEU/edit?usp=sharing.

I must repeat that since I am not a lawyer, I accept no liability from any one who uses the contents of the document.  I issue it in the spirit of being open.  I have already shared this document with Graham Mullan and no doubt he will disagree with it.  Given the history of previous threads I am not inclined to enter into a debate on this forum about the contents.  (Indeed the mods might wish to lock this thread.)  I MAY answer specific questions PMd to me. 

What I will urge cavers to do, if they have not already done so, is to present their concerns and desires to their regional C&A representative so he or she may take them into account in their preparation for the meeting.   

Offline bograt

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2014, 06:26:46 pm »
I will second Bob's suggestion re; reps taking concerns to the BCA C&A meeting on the 16'th, I hope they have been taking notes from the blocked thread so that relevant issues will be brought up and addressed.
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Offline damian

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2014, 07:41:51 pm »
What I will urge cavers to do, if they have not already done so, is to present their concerns and desires to their regional C&A representative so he or she may take them into account in their preparation for the meeting.

Indeed. The BCA AGM asked the C&A Committee to deal with the issue and it will begin its work on this on 16th August. The Committee has on it one (voting) representative from each of the following Organisations:

Regional Councils - Cambrian, CNCC, CSCC, DCA and DCUC.

Constituent Bodies - ACI, ASCT, BCRA, BCRC, CDG, CHECC, NAMHO and WPCST.

Anyone with views on CRoW who is a member of any of the above, should speak to their representative. Individuals should send their thoughts to Andrew Hinde, the Conservation & Access Officer on conservation [at] british[hyphen]caving[dot]org[dot]uk.

Hopefully in this way the decisions that are reached will best reflect the views of BCA's membership.

Offline bograt

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2014, 07:49:46 pm »
What I will urge cavers to do, if they have not already done so, is to present their concerns and desires to their regional C&A representative so he or she may take them into account in their preparation for the meeting.

Indeed. The BCA AGM asked the C&A Committee to deal with the issue and it will begin its work on this on 16th August. The Committee has on it one (voting) representative from each of the following Organisations:

Regional Councils - Cambrian, CNCC, CSCC, DCA and DCUC.

Constituent Bodies - ACI, ASCT, BCRA, BCRC, CDG, CHECC, NAMHO and WPCST. :Anyone with views on CRoW who is a member of any of the above, should speak to their representative. Individuals should send their thoughts to Andrew Hinde, the Conservation & Access Officer on conservation [at] british[hyphen]caving[dot]org[dot]uk.

Hopefully in this way the decisions that are reached will best reflect the views of BCA's membership.

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Offline jasonbirder

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2014, 08:23:11 pm »
For all this intricate and detailed debate over whether CRoW applies to caving or not...

Surely its not for the BCA or regional access bodies to make an amateurish and half-hearted  guess about the law...

Surely its for the BCA to find out what its members would prefer then lobby for it...

Regardless of if there's a 75%or a 25% chance of it being covered...they don't have the final say...regardless of what an eminent QC...some para-legal I used to knock off when I worked in the city or a bloke down the pub advises...

The BCA should take stock of its members wishes and then represent that to the best of its ability...

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2014, 08:58:22 pm »
It says in the text you quoted "... should speak to their representative...". Seems clear enough to me. I am advised that as the date is fast approaching we only have perhaps this weekend to get our clubs to put their views to their relevant council. Ask your rep why he/she hasn't canvassed for your opinion, assuming that they haven't so far done so. I have only just done this - I wish I had put out an email a week ago!

Offline Lazarus

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2014, 09:17:40 pm »
Precisely, Peter. My club is not a member of a regional council, but is a member of BCA affiliated to a regional council - so who do I speak to?

Am I, as a club member (CIM not DIM), allowed to put forth my views as an individual rather than via the rep-method?

As for others, yes, the rep of course should have asked, most might have missed that one.. It should have been the rep having time for questioning the club membership and being able to read and digest all the views provided and put forward an opinion for their club.

It all seems rather convenient that very little information has been put forward about this meeting. Furthermore, it appears rather rushed so that reps have very little chance of gaining a true opinion when a reasonable portion could well be on holiday/expedition (including the rep). Almost as if certain people in the BCA would rather enjoy the status quo than have to deal with differing opinions...
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Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2014, 09:20:59 pm »
Unless I get more than a tiny number of replies, I think my club's view will be that we have no view. Two responses so far, in 6 hours, 48 to go. Perhaps they are all out there caving or pirating the fells.....

Offline jasonbirder

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2014, 09:32:26 pm »
I guess if the number of conversations I've been involved in...

(and it seems to be mirrored by the threads on UK Caving too...so not just anecdotal)

Generally active cavers seem to be in favour of improved access and against restricting access...

Ask yourself which of the following type of conversations YOU'VE been involved in...

  • When can we get back into Sidetrack Cave?

    Is there any progress on getting back into Long Rake Founder Shaft?

    Has the DCA sorted access into Christmas Swallet yet?

    I'm really worried about the formations in Bag of Worms...has anyone spoken to the owner about banning access into Hungerhill Swallet

*Spot the odd one out...


I've no faith in caving's administrative bodies actually going as far as pushing FOR the wishes of grubby rebellious non-conformist cavers...

But that's merely indicative of the massive disconnect between the sports representative bodies and the members they are supposed to represent...


Offline damian

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2014, 09:50:27 pm »
I think it's blatantly obvious how CSCC are voting! Who are these representatives of other bodies anyway? Clubs are members of the above, so do I speak to my club-rep, will my club-rep relay the information to the regional body in time? Do regional bodies have someone I can contact. Or should I, as an individual (not a DIM of the BCA), contact Andrew Hinde to put forth my views and avoid the faff?
Different regions have different membership rules ... so the answer to your question about the Regional Council is that it depends which Region it is. You are very welcome to send your views to Andrew Hinde. Of course, the weighting the meeting chooses to give to individuals' views, versus those of Clubs, versus those of Regions is entirely up to it. However you can be sure that if you have a good point to make, it will be of interest to the meeting.

Offline droid

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2014, 09:52:36 pm »
Non-conformist, Jason?

Who are you kidding? The 'conformist' view seems to be that we have access wherever we want on CRoW land, irrespective of what Government Agencies think.

Witness the vitriol poured on the small non-conformist minority that disagree with this view in the light of no official confirmation.
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Offline bograt

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2014, 10:03:34 pm »
I guess if the number of conversations I've been involved in...

(and it seems to be mirrored by the threads on UK Caving too...so not just anecdotal)

Generally active cavers seem to be in favour of improved access and against restricting access...

Ask yourself which of the following type of conversations YOU'VE been involved in...

  • When can we get back into Sidetrack Cave?

    Is there any progress on getting back into Long Rake Founder Shaft?

    Has the DCA sorted access into Christmas Swallet yet?

    I'm really worried about the formations in Bag of Worms...has anyone spoken to the owner about banning access into Hungerhill Swallet

*Spot the odd one out...


I've no faith in caving's administrative bodies actually going as far as pushing FOR the wishes of grubby rebellious non-conformist cavers...

But that's merely indicative of the massive disconnect between the sports representative bodies and the members they are supposed to represent...

If you keep track of what DCA are doing for you, you would know that Sidetrack has been open for a while, you only need to fill in the visitors log book, Long Rake is a safety (GAS) issue, Christmas Swallet is an ongoing issue, still in negotiation. Please don't knock your regional council unless you are willing to contribute, otherwise you come over as all 'take' and no 'give', or even 'offer'.

The 'massive' disconnection you refer to is your responsibility!!

BTW, I don't think any of these systems are on CRoW access land, although I can't be ars*d to check.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 10:14:24 pm by bograt »
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Offline jasonbirder

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2014, 10:08:59 pm »
I know what's happening with ALL of the specific examples...

It was a demonstration that 99.9% of Caver conversations tend to be about SECURING access to caves...snd I suspect if you are honest with yourself...the same is true for you...

No-one i've ever ever spoken to or caved with has lobbied for LESS access...

If that's even close to the truth...why the hell is the BCA NOT supporting its members views...in the way that the BMC or BCU would their members?

Offline jasonbirder

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2014, 10:10:20 pm »
Quote
Please don't knock your regional council unless you are willing to contribute

And your insight to what I've helped with locally is....

Or is that merely a personal attack designed to draw attention away from my argument...

Offline Alex

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2014, 10:14:50 pm »
We are our own worse enemies

As a certain plant once said "Oh no not again!".
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2014, 10:15:01 pm »
It aint so simple, possibly. There is more than one way to secure access. The contention is over which is the best way - hard graft by working with owners on a case by case basis, or using a blanket perceived right to do so. And even then, there's a great deal more subtlety to either approach. You are right - we all want access, but there is a fundamental philosophical difference between the two approaches. This is why the matter is so divisive. It is extremely unusual for people to take a totally different philosophy on board from the one we have grown up with. It may just be the way each of us is made.

Offline bograt

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2014, 10:23:06 pm »
Quote
Please don't knock your regional council unless you are willing to contribute

And your insight to what I've helped with locally is....

Or is that merely a personal attack designed to draw attention away from my argument...

Just going by your perceived attitude, if you like, you can PM me with your credentials, then I can decide if you where generally stirring it, for all I know, you may well be a valuable member of DCA, 'nom de plumes' can be misleading, especially when they appear to discredit others!
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Offline jasonbirder

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2014, 10:26:45 pm »
Quote
PM me with your credentials, then I can decide if you where generally stirring it

You can judge my credentials and decide if I'm suitable to comment or just a rabble rouser!

Wow!


Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2014, 07:39:47 am »
Moderator Comment OK; unlocked for the time being but with conditions. The handful of trite/personal attack/non-productive/irrelevant comments have been, and will continue to be, removed - please PLEASE keep comments useful and the kind of thing which aids the debate - there's very little time to go before the forthcoming meeting and this topic is potentially massively important, perhaps even fundamental, to the future of caving in the UK - we NEED to have useful debate about it, not mud-slinging, in the run-up to that meeting. It can/will be relocked if there's a toy/pram/handbag war
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 07:58:58 pm by Cap'n Chris »

Offline badger

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2014, 08:05:11 am »
not sure how anyone could not know about the BCA meeting in August, it has been mentioned in several threads on this forum for quite sometime.
maybe it has not clicked into place in peoples minds due to the nature of the topics.
And not sure how people can know the out come yet (many seem to think it has already been decided) which talking to some of the BCA committee they them selves do not know which way the it will go.


Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2014, 08:33:16 am »
It aint so simple, possibly. There is more than one way to secure access. The contention is over which is the best way - hard graft by working with owners on a case by case basis, or using a blanket perceived right to do so. And even then, there's a great deal more subtlety to either approach. You are right - we all want access, but there is a fundamental philosophical difference between the two approaches. This is why the matter is so divisive. It is extremely unusual for people to take a totally different philosophy on board from the one we have grown up with. It may just be the way each of us is made.

There does appear to be a philosophy down south totally different to that up north. But I don't think anybody is expecting "people to take a totally different philosophy on board from the one we [you] have grown up with". I think all anybody is expecting is for the consideration of the idea that it might be possible to cope with two padlocks being replaced with two bolts or do a bit of paperwork to legally retain your padlocks.

Let's get things into proportion.

Offline Oceanrower

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2014, 08:57:38 am »
Apparently, according to the CSCC, I'm against CROW access.

Though I don't remember either of the clubs I belong to asking me.........

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2014, 09:06:30 am »
Apparently, according to the CSCC, I'm against CROW access.

Though I don't remember either of the clubs I belong to asking me.........

Are you seriously saying that with all the hype that your CSCC Representative has not asked your club what they think and how he/she should vote? When is your CSCC Representative up for re-election?

Offline Oceanrower

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2014, 09:24:01 am »
No Simon, that's not what I'm saying.

I have no doubt that the rep has asked the club's committee what they want him to do.

But, unless I've missed something, the clubs haven't canvassed the opinion of their members (me!)

Offline jasonbirder

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Re: If CRoW applies to caving - some comments
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2014, 09:31:46 am »
Which is the point I was making earlier.... Both the CSCC and the CNCCare strongly "anti-CRoW".....

Yet would anyone really suggest that amajority of active Northern AND Southern Cavers are in favour of more landowner restrictions and against better access?

 

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