Author Topic: BCA CRoW Poll Result  (Read 33051 times)

Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2014, 10:49:08 am »
Tony, we could conclude that only one in seven cavers think it a bad idea... 
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Offline Bottlebank

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2014, 10:59:35 am »
Mr Bottlebank.  I did not call anyone a turkey.  Apologies to anyone who voted 'no' who took my comment that way.  I was trying to express my sadness at the number of people who voted against a campaign for a legal right of access to caves.  In my opinion a 'no' vote is something that is detrimental to the health of the future of caving.  So I tried to use a seasonal English idiom to express that.

FYI from wikipedia;

"Turkeys voting for Christmas is an English idiom used as a metaphor or simile (in the construct "like turkeys voting for Christmas") in reference to a suicidal ("death-wish"[1]) political act, especially a vote. In the United Kingdom, turkeys are customarily eaten on Christmas Day dating back to 1573 when they became part of the English Christmas dinner.[2]

The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations writes that a commentator in the Independent Magazine traced the origin of the phrase to British Liberal Party politician David Penhaligon,[1] who is quoted as saying: "Us voting for the Pact is like a turkey voting for Christmas" in reference to the Lib-Lab Pact which he opposed.[3]

The phrase was soon borrowed by other politicians and public figures.[1] In particular, British MP Teresa Gorman, who opposed the Maastricht Treaty, stated; "If the House of Commons voted for Maastricht it would be like 651 turkeys voting for Christmas."[4] When confronted over time spent on luxury by United Kingdom Independence Party MEPs, Nigel Farage responded by saying that "we are the turkeys that would vote for Christmas".[5]"

Mr Badlad,

I'm well aware of the phrase.

This debate has been between people who believe we should have a right of access to caves and people who believe the status quo works well, through negotiation and respect for the people who own the caves we use. I accept you may not think they own them.

Those of us who don't agree with you are most certainly not suicidal. We also want better access wherever possible. The debate is about how we achieve it.

Your comment perhaps gives us an insight into what you really think about people who don't share your views on this and was hardly in keeping with the higher standards you are asking us to maintain under your new management of UK Caving.

Cheers, and all the best for Xmas!

Tony

p.s. do you still need the stuffing sending over?



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Offline Bottlebank

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2014, 11:02:52 am »
Tony, we could conclude that only one in seven cavers think it a bad idea...

Stuart,

We could, but I think you'd be on safer grounds assuming only around two in nine currently think it is a good idea :-)
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Offline Kevlar

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2014, 11:22:25 am »
Number of eligible voters: 6,085
Total number of votes cast: 2,270
Turnout: 37.3%

Out of interest - do we have any estimate of how many active British cavers are not BCA members?

Equally out of interest - do we have an estimate of how many BCA "caving" members are not active cavers?
I ask because the student club I am a member of insured all their keen new members in January, some of which we unfortunately never saw again, graduated etc and had no way of passing their vote on to them. As a result, probably 20 voting forms (maybe more) went into the bin. I'm sure we were not alone in doing this.

Offline bograt

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2014, 11:24:19 am »
 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I would like to refer my learned friends to the previous post on this thread by Cap'n Chris ( post no. 7)

 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Online tony from suffolk

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2014, 11:25:53 am »
Absolutely no point arguing with the result either way. The Yes vote wins. Good!  They won.  The Nos lost. Time to get working on getting the government to agree that caves are covered under CRoW.
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Offline cavermark

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2014, 12:00:31 pm »
Absolutely no point arguing with the result either way.

Where would be the fun in that?  ;)

Online Aubrey

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2014, 12:34:40 pm »
The 62% vote in favor of BCA pursuing CRoW access to caves is nowhere near the75% required to change the cconstitution. It therefore seems likely that any vote to change the constitution will fail.
 
The BCA executive now have the problem of trying to satisfy the members who voted yes whilst adhering to their own constitution.

Can of worms?
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Offline richardg

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2014, 12:49:29 pm »
The 62% vote in favor of BCA pursuing CRoW access to caves is nowhere near the75% required to change the cconstitution. It therefore seems likely that any vote to change the constitution will fail.
 
The BCA executive now have the problem of trying to satisfy the members who voted yes whilst adhering to their own constitution.

Can of worms?
Aubrey ....its nowt about a change to any constitution!! Ha ha  :lol:..... However its not April the first .... its Christmas time... good attempt to derail a democratic process..... And you've posted it in the wrong section, we've got a joke section on the forum, you may have got a few more laughs there, ha ha good one mate.....  :lol:0

Offline Bottlebank

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2014, 01:14:50 pm »
The 62% vote in favor of BCA pursuing CRoW access to caves is nowhere near the75% required to change the cconstitution. It therefore seems likely that any vote to change the constitution will fail.
 
The BCA executive now have the problem of trying to satisfy the members who voted yes whilst adhering to their own constitution.

Can of worms?
Aubrey ....its nowt about a change to any constitution!! Ha ha  :lol:..... However its not April the first .... its Christmas time... good attempt to derail a democratic process..... And you've posted it in the wrong section, we've got a joke section on the forum, you may have got a few more laughs there, ha ha good one mate.....  :lol:0

Aubrey is more or less right - although it's a bit more complicated than that.  There are actually three 70% votes needed before BCA can campaign for CRoW, without breaching the constitution.

If you're being serious that's a good example of why the BCA should have got the facts out in advance of the poll!

It's a very wormy can and this is just the start of what could be a very long process, because even if they get through that there's still the little matter of persuading the powers that be to change their minds. Best bet is they'll listen sympathetically, and do nothing.

If CRoW falls on the constitutional change vote no doubt we'll see a campaign from Badlad to lower the bar on constitutional change to 50% next :-)
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Offline Pete K

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2014, 01:29:17 pm »
I've been biting my tongue on this but...

The vote has come in as a victory for the Yes side. It is both petty and pathetic for those who have not got their way in this to start undermining the voting process. Let's face it if the vote came down the other way you'd not be doing it, grow up.
I'm sorry but I don't care about those who did not vote, clearly most of them did not care enough about the debate to have an opinion either way and damn anyone who tries to hint that the absence of a vote can be read as a theoretical vote for any side. For those who did not vote because they did not have the correct address listed for the ballot, I have sympathy, but that's it. I got my papers because my address was right, you should have checked.
The more vocal members of the No camp here should just pick their toys back up and work out how to live with the fact they are outnumbered and that they lost. You can now become an irrelevant remnant of the old ways or remain as an important part of the debate if you choose to do so like adults. You will have the job now of bending your influence to either continue to undermine the now accepted position or to come round and support the majority of cavers in their goal of confirming access rights for future generations.
The Yes camp also need to be very careful now. Don't rub it in or antagonise anyone. The job ahead will require more effort than we realise I fear. The outlook on our position has changed but the interpretation of the act has not, we will need the members of our governing body, regional councils, clubs and every access controlling body to move this forward, even those who voted No. To attempt to get one's way by subverting the process and misusing power is immoral and if this is to be our great legacy for the future of the sport, it must be done openly and honestly.

So, as Christmas arrives and 2015 approaches, can we please put this arguing rubbish behind us, accept the position we're in and move forward without childish demonstrations, veiled insults and irrelevant bickering. You'd think we'd just voted the Nazi Party into power.

And with that invocation of Godwin's Law I say goodbye to you and Merry Christmas.

Offline bograt

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2014, 01:38:01 pm »
Pete K;
 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: etc. etc.......


BTW, I think some of them are not grown up enough to climb out of the pram to pick up their toys ::)
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Offline Goydenman

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2014, 01:43:17 pm »
The 62% vote in favor of BCA pursuing CRoW access to caves is nowhere near the75% required to change the cconstitution. It therefore seems likely that any vote to change the constitution will fail.
 
The BCA executive now have the problem of trying to satisfy the members who voted yes whilst adhering to their own constitution.

Can of worms?
Aubrey ....its nowt about a change to any constitution!! Ha ha  :lol:..... However its not April the first .... its Christmas time... good attempt to derail a democratic process..... And you've posted it in the wrong section, we've got a joke section on the forum, you may have got a few more laughs there, ha ha good one mate.....  :lol:0

Aubrey is more or less right - although it's a bit more complicated than that.  There are actually three 70% votes needed before BCA can campaign for CRoW, without breaching the constitution.

If you're being serious that's a good example of why the BCA should have got the facts out in advance of the poll!

It's a very wormy can and this is just the start of what could be a very long process, because even if they get through that there's still the little matter of persuading the powers that be to change their minds. Best bet is they'll listen sympathetically, and do nothing.

If CRoW falls on the constitutional change vote no doubt we'll see a campaign from Badlad to lower the bar on constitutional change to 50% next :-)

It is important the BCA now take it they have a majority yes vote and move forward on that basis. I would like to see the concerns of no voters taken note of and lets move on together. I would be very very annoyed and I suspect not the only one if this goes into a 'long process'. If it does then it will further divide the caving community and I fear for the fallout from it.

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2014, 02:35:31 pm »
Goydenman makes a very important point above; we do need to work together. Bearing in mind that 77% of those eligible to vote didn't vote yes, his other point about staying aware of the concerns of no voters is also an important consideration.

Our BCA officers' real challenge now is to find a way forwards which the majority of cavers are comfortable with, even though the outcome of the vote wasn't a clear landslide victory for anybody. Their job will not be easy; I hope everyone remembers that they're volunteers and I think we should all give them a bit of breathing space now to reflect on things and work out the best way forward.

I hope you all have a happy and peaceful Christmas, whichever way you campaigned or voted.

Offline crickleymal

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2014, 02:37:55 pm »
I must admit I am saddened but not surprised at the number of people on here who seem to be trying to undermine the votes cast. After all most of the govenments we've had in the UK seem to be elected by a majority of a minority of the people and we just get on with it, but not on UK Caving
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Offline Ian Adams

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2014, 02:40:55 pm »
It is important the BCA now take it they have a majority yes vote and move forward on that basis. I would like to see the concerns of no voters taken note of and lets move on together. I would be very very annoyed and I suspect not the only one if this goes into a 'long process'. If it does then it will further divide the caving community and I fear for the fallout from it.


....Quite possibly the most important and best post made on this thread so far ....

 :thumbsup:

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Offline Ouan

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2014, 03:01:41 pm »
Bearing in mind that 77% of those eligible to vote didn't vote yes, his other point about staying aware of the concerns of no voters is also an important consideration.

77% might not have voted 'Yes', more importantly 86% didn't vote 'No'.....

Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2014, 03:03:16 pm »
Goydenman makes a very important point above; we do need to work together. Bearing in mind that 77% of those eligible to vote didn't vote yes,

Sigh... expected better from you Pitlamp. You have no idea how people would have voted, aside from the ones who did. 62% - yes. 48% - no.

Quote
his other point about staying aware of the concerns of no voters is also an important consideration.

Our BCA officers' real challenge now is to find a way forwards which the majority of cavers are comfortable with, even though the outcome of the vote wasn't a clear landslide victory for anybody.

Is it? The majority vote was for BCA to campaign for CRoW to include going underground. I can't see any resolution other than BCA do or do not campaign for inclusion. The vote is for yes, they should.

Quote
Their job will not be easy; I hope everyone remembers that they're volunteers and I think we should all give them a bit of breathing space now to reflect on things and work out the best way forward.

The way forward being to start campaigning for the inclusion of going underground within CRoW. That, after all, was what was voted on.

It might be an inconvenient truth that that is how things have turned out, but hey, that's democracy.


Quote
I hope you all have a happy and peaceful Christmas, whichever way you campaigned or voted.

This, I think we can all agree on.  :thumbsup:
I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

Offline Bottlebank

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2014, 03:17:26 pm »

Quote
Their job will not be easy; I hope everyone remembers that they're volunteers and I think we should all give them a bit of breathing space now to reflect on things and work out the best way forward.

The way forward being to start campaigning for the inclusion of going underground within CRoW. That, after all, was what was voted on.

It might be an inconvenient truth that that is how things have turned out, but hey, that's democracy.

Quote
I hope you all have a happy and peaceful Christmas, whichever way you campaigned or voted.

This, I think we can all agree on.  :thumbsup:

I don't think the campaign can start - it would be against the constitution. I guess we have to wait for the next step, I assume around August to find out if there will or won't be one.

Until then I'm sure we'll all keep debating nicely.

On the second point - another  :thumbsup:
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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2014, 03:20:07 pm »
Stuart - all I was thinking of when I mentioned that 77% didn't vote yes was that it's a shame there isn't a clear mandate. It would have been a better outcome if there had have been a majority of cavers (rather than a majority of those who voted) in favour of one or other option, either way. That would have made things easier for our (volunteer) BCA officers who will have to try and deal with this soon enough.

'Tis the season of goodwill; let's not argue - the time for that is over.
Have a great Christmas.  :thumbsup:

Online Mark Wright

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2014, 03:50:03 pm »
I 'm a little disappointed in the numbers of people who didn't vote at all. 62.7% in fact.  Not from a clear mandate point of view, as Pitlamp suggests, but from the worrying aspect that it represents around 30 members of my own club!
 
I would assume though that those who chose not to vote, did so being happy to go along with the majority, whichever it turned out to be.

In this case 3819 people who chose not to vote are happy to support the majority 1402 people who voted 'Yes'. That's an 85.8% majority in favour of doing whatever needs to be done to make the necessary constitutional changes to move forward as soon as is reasonably practicable. 

Mark

Offline Rhys

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2014, 03:53:22 pm »
Someone please kill me now.....

Offline ALEXW

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2014, 04:10:11 pm »
In this case 3819 people who chose not to vote are happy to support the majority 1402 people who voted 'Yes'. That's an 85.8% majority in favour of doing whatever needs to be done to make the necessary constitutional changes to move forward as soon as is reasonably practicable. 

After a great deal of deliberation I voted NO . The YES vote won.  I don't intend to spit my dummy out. I will back the majority.
Lets hope that we get the outcome that we all want, it could be a long haul we need to present a united front.

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2014, 04:25:45 pm »
In this case 3819 people who chose not to vote are happy to support the majority 1402 people who voted 'Yes'. That's an 85.8% majority in favour of doing whatever needs to be done to make the necessary constitutional changes to move forward as soon as is reasonably practicable. 

After a great deal of deliberation I voted NO . The YES vote won.  I don't intend to spit my dummy out. I will back the majority.
Lets hope that we get the outcome that we all want, it could be a long haul we need to present a united front.

Yeah - let's not fall out overly about this.

I'm just sitting here thinking that, by and large, this has been a pretty sensible discussion right from the start. A few folk have occasionally become a bit agitated but it's also brought out the best in many people. Some very well constructed arguments have appeared. I've got great respect for these individuals, even though I've not always agreed with them on specific points. When you look at the abusive stuff that appears on forums in other circles, us cavers aren't that bad a bunch really.

As Mark Wright would say: "Good Caving!"

Online tony from suffolk

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #49 on: December 23, 2014, 04:57:13 pm »
. When you look at the abusive stuff that appears on forums in other circles, us cavers aren't that bad a bunch really.


Indeed, this is a very gentle and well-mannered forum compared to many others on the internet. I still shudder when I think of the stream of death threats I received shortly after, in a moment of sheer madness, I happened to post on the "My Little Pony" forum that I marginally preferred "Pinky Pie" to "Princess Twilight Sparkle".
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