Author Topic: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.  (Read 3595 times)

Online royfellows

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Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« on: April 26, 2017, 10:19:25 am »
In 2017 we, as owners of the Craig y Dinas mineral rights, launched an initiative to improve access to the mine. Initially this in the form of a proposed walkway to reconnect the original mine track. However this was refused under the SSSI designation of the site.

As an alternative we are to investigate the status of a Public Right of Way which for some reason is not shown on Ordnance Survey maps. This Right of Way crosses land of which the owner has shown hostility to anyone venturing on the land for recreational purposes.

Please note that the tarmac road which extends past the car park is a Council public road, although it only leads to the farm.

Our primary purpose is to enable people using our mine for diving be able to easily transport heavy equipment such as air tanks to the mine avoiding the steep up and down climbs that exist on the Craig y Dinas route.

More details at: http://my.rctcbc.gov.uk/myRhondda.aspx

You will need to click on Public Rights of Way and Adopted Roads

I will need to investigate the current state of the path and work with the local authority Right of Way Enforcement Officer. There is also a potential issue regarding the vehicle use of the public road as it only leads to the farm and there could be a turning problem.

I am very grateful to Natural Resources Wales the Craig y Dinas soil landowner for help on this matter.

Roy Fellows, Natural Amenities Ltd


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Offline Long Drop

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2017, 01:06:55 pm »
Hi Roy,

What makes you think there is any demand or need for improved access to the mine?  The last time I was there it was a straightforward walk, even with gear.  I can't see any need for any change to the existing arrangements.

Or is this just a precursor to the café, tour guides, interpretation boards and thousands of paying grockles?  :)

L


Offline Kenilworth

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2017, 01:22:38 pm »
we are to investigate the status of a Public Right of Way which for some reason is not shown on Ordnance Survey maps. This Right of Way crosses land of which the owner has shown hostility to anyone venturing on the land for recreational purposes... I will need to investigate the current state of the path and work with the local authority Right of Way Enforcement Officer.

This applies directly to earlier posts concerning access. Would it not be much better to work with the "hostile" (people who don't give you what you want are always called hostile...) owner? Would it not be much more kind and responsible, talks with him failing to achieve the desired result, to part respectfully, amiably, and continue on with the longer walk? Is it a victory to use obscure law to circumvent neighborliness?

Online royfellows

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2017, 01:57:24 pm »
Hi Roy,

What makes you think there is any demand or need for improved access to the mine?  The last time I was there it was a straightforward walk, even with gear.  I can't see any need for any change to the existing arrangements.

Or is this just a precursor to the café, tour guides, interpretation boards and thousands of paying grockles?  :)

L

I was specifically asked about this by diving groups and some others and am simply attempting to address stakeholders needs.
Glad NAMHO 2019 over.

Online royfellows

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2017, 02:10:37 pm »
we are to investigate the status of a Public Right of Way which for some reason is not shown on Ordnance Survey maps. This Right of Way crosses land of which the owner has shown hostility to anyone venturing on the land for recreational purposes... I will need to investigate the current state of the path and work with the local authority Right of Way Enforcement Officer.

This applies directly to earlier posts concerning access. Would it not be much better to work with the "hostile" (people who don't give you what you want are always called hostile...) owner? Would it not be much more kind and responsible, talks with him failing to achieve the desired result, to part respectfully, amiably, and continue on with the longer walk? Is it a victory to use obscure law to circumvent neighborliness?

Talk about what?

People pay road tax for the right to use highways which are either Highways Agency or local authority. The former Motorways and trunk roads, the rest local authority. Pedestrian access is a right.

Re a Public right of way. Not my job to enforce but local authority.
But wait a minute, the landowner has not done anything yet! If he comes into it at all it will be of his own volition. Why does it have to concern him?

By "hostile" I mean that in the past he has accosted gorge walkers on his side of the river, which is petty, but his legal right. He has also put up notices, which again, is his legal right.



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Offline UKMC

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2017, 09:03:07 pm »
Good work Roy

Happy to support in any way we can it looks a lovely project and would be a nice walk to all members of the outdoor community


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Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2017, 01:09:22 am »
Surprising how easy the fingerpoints disappear leaving a sad ivy encrusted pole.

Offline tamarmole

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2017, 07:48:09 am »
we are to investigate the status of a Public Right of Way which for some reason is not shown on Ordnance Survey maps. This Right of Way crosses land of which the owner has shown hostility to anyone venturing on the land for recreational purposes... I will need to investigate the current state of the path and work with the local authority Right of Way Enforcement Officer.

This applies directly to earlier posts concerning access. Would it not be much better to work with the "hostile" (people who don't give you what you want are always called hostile...) owner? Would it not be much more kind and responsible, talks with him failing to achieve the desired result, to part respectfully, amiably, and continue on with the longer walk? Is it a victory to use obscure law to circumvent neighborliness?

Apologies for feeding the troll.

Yes it is a victory to gain access to land which we have a legal right to access.

Rights of way legislation is not an "obscure law", in the U.K it is the means by which we access much of our open land.  We are a small, overcrowded island with considerable pressures and conflicting demands on what little  land we have.  Without rights of way legislation large tracts of countryside which we currently have legal access to would still be the sole  preserve of  wealthy landowners.  Men and women  fought for and were sometimes gaoled for the right to access open land, Kinder in the 1930s being a case in point.  Like all rights they need to be strongly and actively defended otherwise they will be lost.  Thus if a landowner is preventing or hindering legal access and won't behave reasonably it is wholly right and proper that those tasked with enforcing the legislation should do so and should be held to account if they don't.




Online royfellows

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2017, 08:28:25 am »
Well said Rick.

Just a few words about the council road.

Originally it was a through route. albeit a barrow lane, until the  A465 was upgraded to a dual carriageway. As the lane was very minor it was not over bridged by the new road, so the new road now effectively cuts it in two. Travel along it from either direction and you come to the dual carriageway embankment.

The section that passes the Dinas Rock car park now only leads to the farm, however it is still a public road.
I think I should have explained this.
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Offline robjones

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2017, 05:16:23 pm »
The former through road from Pont Nedd Fechan to Cefn Rhigos via Pen-cae-drain farm is shown on current OS 1:25,000 maps as "Other routes with public access ... the exact nature of the rights .. may be checked with the highway authority...".

On the seventh series one-inch map (the last prior to the dualling of the A465) it is shown as "14ft of metalling or over" which was not the smallest class of road - so more than a 'barrow lane' in its day.

I expect you know this already!

Online royfellows

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2017, 08:07:14 pm »

I expect you know this already!

No matter, all info welcome
 :thumbsup:
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Online royfellows

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2017, 08:06:33 pm »
The mines the other side of the river do not belong to the landowner, they have been subject of a severance. (Severance rights same as my rights at Craig y Dinas, not manorial rights)
Ancillary rights are explicitly described and cover just about everything, although "all mines and minerals" implies these rights and has been established in case law.

They belong to the mineral owner John Crichton-Stuart, 7th Marquis of Bute.

Just done a Land Reg search, what a performance.
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Offline Wayland Smith

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2017, 09:21:34 am »
Does the Most Honourable Marquis of Bute
Know this?  ;D

Online royfellows

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2017, 09:34:44 am »
He probably owns that much he's forgot half of it
 :lol:
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Online Roger W

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2017, 09:43:12 am »
On the other hand, he may have a keen interest in underground exploration, and be following this thread with great attention.    :unsure:
"That, of course, is the dangerous part about caves:  you don't know how far they go back, sometimes... or what is waiting for you inside."   JRR Tolkein: "The Hobbit"

Offline ah147

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2017, 09:49:15 am »
He's actually from London and is an ex-formula 1 racer. Quite an interesting bloke who left posh school early to work as a van driver and posed as a painter and decorator....despite being on the sunday times rich list the whole time!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Crichton-Stuart,_7th_Marquess_of_Bute

Online royfellows

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2017, 10:03:10 am »
Well I am happy to offer him and his friends access to my silica mine in exchange for the same courtesy with regard to his.
 ;D
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Online royfellows

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2017, 10:57:36 am »
Improved access to the mine

I visited the site on Saturday with the purpose of ascertaining the condition of the Right of Way to the wooden footbridge.

I started by looking at the Council Adopted tarmac road and noted that the gate at the bottom, which was always open, had been recently removed along with its posts and holes filled with concrete.

Ascending the road I was dismayed to see that the commencement of the ROW was blocked with landfill bordered by debris, also there was no mandatory fingerpost sign..

This has been duly reported to Rhondda Cynon Taf, the local authority.

As the ROW was inaccessible from that end I retraced my steps and went on to the the mine where the ROW starts from the footbridge. From the bridge it bears to the right and is more or less discernible and reached the concrete bases of the ropeway standards.
Immediately adjacent to the last one is a stile in good condition. Crossing this the path follows a fence and runs parallel with the gorge reaching a second stile. After the second stile the path becomes very indistinct and then drops down to a flat area with no sign of the path at all. Crossing this area, eventually the edge of the landfill comes into sight.

The whole path needs clearing by volunteers, but could easily be done. I do have to say that even in its present state it is a very easy walk and a much shorter route.

The tarmac road has passing places and wide area where a vehicle could turn around. It could stop adjacent to the start of the ROW once established, drop off passengers and equipment, and then carry on down to the Dinas Rock car park.

I am now awaiting response from the local authority who I have contacted this morning.

Photos show blockage of ROW at the road end.

Glad NAMHO 2019 over.

Online royfellows

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2017, 02:55:25 pm »
Local authority has responded within 24 hours!

Good service
 :thumbsup:
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Offline AWW

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2017, 03:31:11 pm »
Local authority has responded within 24 hours!

Good service
 :thumbsup:

Responding is one thing, action is a completely different kettle of fish. :-[

Online royfellows

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2017, 04:51:56 pm »
Pessimist!
 :lol:
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Online royfellows

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2018, 03:21:57 pm »
To interested parties

Please be advised that I Roy A Fellows acting as a private individual have served on Rhondda Cynon Taf as the highway authority responsible, two separate notices under Sec 130 of the Highways Act 1980 ( Statutory Form 1) relating to:

1/ Partially constructed masonry gateway across the public tarmac road adjacent to Dinas Rock car park which is a physiological deterrent to anyone wishing to use the road and not having business at the farm. (Herrick v Kidner and Somerset County Council, 2014.)

2/ The blocking with landfill and brushwood the Public Right of Way PRI 29 leading from the above road to Upper Silica Mines by way of the footbridge.

Notes
Exchange of forms is in 5 forms:

Form 1 Is the notice served by the complainant

Form 2 is Highways Authority acknowledgement of receipt of Form 1

Form 3 Is served on the person responsible for the obstruction by local highway authority

Form 4 Is a notice served on the local Highways Authority by the complainant of an intention to apply to a magistrates' court for an order requiring the authority to take steps for securing the removal of an obstruction

Form 5 Is a notice to be placed on site following a successful application to Magistrates Court by the complainant.
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Offline droid

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2018, 05:43:43 pm »
Good work Roy  :thumbsup:
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline Badlad

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2018, 05:51:47 pm »
Good luck from me

Offline Mattrees

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Re: Upper Dinas Silica Mine, improved access.
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2018, 10:37:39 am »

1/ Partially constructed masonry gateway across the public tarmac road adjacent to Dinas Rock car park which is a physiological deterrent to anyone wishing to use the road and not having business at the farm. (Herrick v Kidner and Somerset County Council, 2014.)


Is that similar to a psychological barrier?  ;)