Author Topic: Metal Steps KMC  (Read 8825 times)

Offline MarkS

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2018, 11:39:27 am »
Removing them might also be considered the start of a slippery slope, without investing some serious time in finding out who put them there and to what end. THEN decide what to do, having had a civilised debate with all interested parties.

Personally I think the default position should be that caves should not have anchors/aids added without investing some serious time to ensure there is consensus, rather than the reverse. Anyhow, I have no doubt it will be concidered by the CNCC when they next meet and they are the best group to be making these decisions.

Offline Dave254

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2018, 12:07:49 pm »
are the metal steps in wall still there in Old Ing/Dismal Hill ?

They are still there (or at least they were when I used them last week!)

Offline Badlad

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2018, 12:33:14 pm »
If, whoever placed these stemples had planned to install any more then I hope the concern shown here will put a stop to it - for now anyway.  Although the person or persons involved haven't come forward publicly a number of different groups are trying to get to the bottom of the matter.  I'm sure the likes of CRO and CNCC have given it some thought but I doubt any outcome will be immediate.  We should consider that these may have been installed with the best of intentions for a genuine purpose.  We should also consider that there are many man-made and fixed aids across the caves of the Dales so this is not unprecedented but very difficult for everyone to agree on where the line is drawn.

Offline Simon Beck

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2018, 01:18:07 pm »
When I initially saw the pictures it never occurred to me that anybody other than the rescue services would require a modification like this, especially considering how frequently it gets used by them. For my part I owe the organisation an apology for jumping to conclusions, sorry. My cynical response I'm afraid is the result of prior episodes..
Regardless of whether those responsible come forward they need to go I think! It's sounding more and more like the work of non cavers, those that don't know any better etc.

Offline swinstobob

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2018, 01:44:25 pm »
As a member of the 'obvious recue team',  and a member of the Ops group for said team,  I can tell you that any permanent rigging or aids we fit are always done in consultation with CNCC or,  above ground,  the BMC and other interested parties. These steps have never been discussed or sanctioned by the teams Ops group.
On some rescues,  we need to rig extra hangers or bolts,  which are then either made good or referred to CNCC to see if they will allow them to remain.
Believe it or not, we do try not to damage the cave environment.
These certainly are not sanction by CRO. The Cave Rescue Organisation did not install them.

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Offline Badlad

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2018, 08:45:38 pm »
Although these may not have been sanctioned by the CRO they were installed by a prominent member of the CRO team for cave rescue purposes - were they not?

There is a worthy debate to be had here as we could pre-install fixed aids in many caves in order to assist cave rescues should they happen in the future.

Offline Simon Beck

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2018, 09:00:19 pm »
So nobody else in the organisation knew anything about it except the prominent member!? What a load of bullshit! 

Offline JJ

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2018, 10:24:26 pm »
For the record I am as pissed off about this as everyone else.

I attended the CRO Opps meeting on the 11th April 2018 and this was minuted, with names redacted (xxxxx).

 Equipment
 A discussion on the KMC ropes following a trial by xxxxx and xxxxx.
 All Knots to be removed from the rope and stored with karabiners
 Locations of extra bolt placings to be forwarded to CNCC ACTION xxxxx, xxxxx
 Tandem pulley for the wire section to be bought ACTION xxxxx

I have a clear memory of this meeting and at no time where stemples discussed or the instillation of extra anchors except through the CNCC. I do not believe the person who may be responsible attended this meeting or is in any of those redacted names above.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2018, 10:30:45 pm »
Perhaps the solution (for future reference) is to drill/rockhammer natural-looking footholds into the rock rather than have visible protruding metal staples which clearly seem to cause teacup tsunami(s) and disproportionate indignation. Same person(s) could do either. The effort/time involved would be similar. Could be an ideal workaround.

Offline Balmerfish

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2018, 11:56:19 pm »
well this is all clear as mud.
Perhaps the best way forward is to not embarrass anyone with " them them " type debates. But to have a constructive convo about what happens now ? 
We’re in the stickiest situation since Sticky the Stick Insect got stuck on a Sticky bun.

Online SamT

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2018, 12:00:34 am »
Fuck it.. install a train


Offline Balmerfish

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #61 on: July 28, 2018, 12:03:00 am »
Fuck it.. install a train



Chuckle - :)
We’re in the stickiest situation since Sticky the Stick Insect got stuck on a Sticky bun.

Online topcat

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2018, 05:31:26 am »
 I hope the passengers  were given clear instructions not to stand up, as in  "if you stand up will die !" 😁

Offline Wolfo

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #63 on: July 28, 2018, 07:53:27 am »
well this is all clear as mud.
Perhaps the best way forward is to not embarrass anyone with " them them " type debates. But to have a constructive convo about what happens now ?

Pull the shitty steps out  ;)
Lower Saxony - Harz Mountain Area - Germany

Online Pete K

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #64 on: July 28, 2018, 08:03:20 am »
While an effort to establish who and why must still be made, I think to leave these in would set a precedent for more aids of this type being thought of as acceptable. The agreed anchor scheme is the foundation of environmentally responsibility in the regions and, although the odd random anchor does appear from time to time without issue, the acceptance of via ferratta steps and steel cables is the thin end of a wedge that ends at tacky adventure tourism in every cave site. I install these things as part of my work, but it is a very different thing when you are doing it in a manmade environment (mine) you own, natural cave is off limits IMO.

Perhaps the landowner needs to be asked if he/she consented to this. It is their cave on their land after all. That is a pretty solid yes/no and then they can be pulled out without complaint if they were not consulted.
The CNCC's anchor tester should pull them out no problem and the holes can be plugged with mud to make the area appear natural again. Better than chopping them off.

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #65 on: July 28, 2018, 08:09:55 am »
Just be wary of dragging landowners into this kind of issue, unnecessarily.  In this particular example we enjoy the best possible access (just turn up and go). If caving becomes perceived as hassle by landowners, then ultimately we might not be quite so welcome.

This seems to me to be a problem which the caving community should be able to sort out internally.

Offline Simon Beck

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #66 on: July 28, 2018, 10:16:14 am »
Just be wary of dragging landowners into this kind of issue, unnecessarily.  In this particular example we enjoy the best possible access (just turn up and go). If caving becomes perceived as hassle by landowners, then ultimately we might not be quite so welcome.

This seems to me to be a problem which the caving community should be able to sort out internally.

Couldn't agree more, especially with the recent change of ownership.

Offline langcliffe

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #67 on: July 28, 2018, 12:11:55 pm »
Just be wary of dragging landowners into this kind of issue, unnecessarily.  In this particular example we enjoy the best possible access (just turn up and go). If caving becomes perceived as hassle by landowners, then ultimately we might not be quite so welcome.

This seems to me to be a problem which the caving community should be able to sort out internally.

Couldn't agree more, especially with the recent change of ownership.

Has Foredale Farm changed hands as well as Braida Garth?

Offline Badlad

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #68 on: July 28, 2018, 01:00:33 pm »
As I understand it KMC is not owned by Braida Garth Farm which did change hands 18 months ago.  Braida does own Yordas and some of the fields on the west side of Kingsdale but there are several other landownerships too.  I do agree that none of them need to be troubled by this relatively trivial matter.  It is something cavers should be able to sort out themselves.

Online Pete K

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #69 on: July 28, 2018, 04:34:54 pm »
Sorry, the bit about asking the landowner was meant to be a bit tongue in cheek. Of course they won't have been asked, but that is the point really, it's not 'our' cave to modify, however you view the access legal situation, whoever did this did so against the majority opinion and without (almost certainly) asking the cave owner.

Offline JB

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #70 on: July 28, 2018, 09:51:11 pm »
Six people appear to have taken issue with this. Many have not.

Whoever went to the (significant) effort to install these (presumably for a perceived compelling reason) would doubtless be disheartened if their work was vetoed by a tiny cabal and subsequently removed.

The people who aren't impressed with the efforts should avert their eyes and carry on caving without recourse to them.

Don't know if you're aware of this? https://cncc.org.uk/conservation/

Offline maxf

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #71 on: July 28, 2018, 10:28:43 pm »
Perhaps a sign could be installed stating not to look upwards for the short time you walk underneath them for the people who are easily offended by some metal sticking out of rock...


Online Fulk

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #72 on: July 28, 2018, 11:13:11 pm »
Ha Ha bloody Ha.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2018, 12:16:15 am »
Sorry, the bit about asking the landowner was meant to be a bit tongue in cheek. Of course they won't have been asked

What if they had, and the landowner said yes, though?

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Metal Steps KMC
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2018, 08:16:12 am »
Six people appear to have taken issue with this. Many have not.

Whoever went to the (significant) effort to install these (presumably for a perceived compelling reason) would doubtless be disheartened if their work was vetoed by a tiny cabal and subsequently removed.

The people who aren't impressed with the efforts should avert their eyes and carry on caving without recourse to them.

Without wishing to express any personal opinion on this problem, either way, I feel it would be useful just to mention that many northern cavers are watching this with concern (but see little point in commenting here, or elsewhere, until the facts are established). The number of responses on this forum is often (but by no means always) a guide to the level of interest.