Metal Steps KMC

[JB]

In my opinion (and obviously plenty of others) they need to go. CNCC are the right group for the job after a quick vote? and I hope there's someone who thinks likewise who will push to get it done.

Jules.

 

[cap n chris]

Six people appear to have taken issue with this. Many have not.

Whoever went to the (significant) effort to install these (presumably for a perceived compelling reason) would doubtless be disheartened if their work was vetoed by a tiny cabal and subsequently removed.

The people who aren't impressed with the efforts should avert their eyes and carry on caving without recourse to them.

 

[Cave_Troll]

are the metal steps in wall still there in Old Ing/Dismal Hill ?

 

[Andyj23UK]

i has looked at the pics - and read the thread - but still unsure EXACTLY where these are - and what they are supposed to achieve

access to the " hi level traverse " - is NOT hard .

 

[langcliffe]

i has looked at the pics - and read the thread - but still unsure EXACTLY where these are - and what they are supposed to achieve
access to the " hi level traverse " - is NOT hard .

They are a little way downstream from where the traverse crosses the passage. They are definitely not meant to facilitate access to the high level traverse. I suspect that they are intended to make one section easier.

 

[MarkS]

The people who aren't impressed with the efforts should avert their eyes and carry on caving without recourse to them.

That sounds like a slippery slope. I think they should be removed unless a seriously good justification can be put forward for them to remain.

 

[BradW]

The people who aren't impressed with the efforts should avert their eyes and carry on caving without recourse to them.

That sounds like a slippery slope. I think they should be removed unless a seriously good justification can be put forward for them to remain.

Removing them might also be considered the start of a slippery slope, without investing some serious time in finding out who put them there and to what end. THEN decide what to do, having had a civilised debate with all interested parties.

 

[alastairgott]

Remove them.

 

[Ian Ball]

are the metal steps in wall still there in Old Ing/Dismal Hill ?

Hope so 

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

i has looked at the pics - and read the thread - but still unsure EXACTLY where these are - and what they are supposed to achieve
access to the " hi level traverse " - is NOT hard .

They are a little way downstream from where the traverse crosses the passage. They are definitely not meant to facilitate access to the high level traverse. I suspect that they are intended to make one section easier.

At last.
After 3 days and more than 40 replies, many given over to wailing and gnashing of teeth and only a couple asking for this information, we now know where they are.
How many of us really bother to read stuff, and then wonder if we have enough information, before rushing off a reply?

 

[MarkS]

Removing them might also be considered the start of a slippery slope, without investing some serious time in finding out who put them there and to what end. THEN decide what to do, having had a civilised debate with all interested parties.

Personally I think the default position should be that caves should not have anchors/aids added without investing some serious time to ensure there is consensus, rather than the reverse. Anyhow, I have no doubt it will be concidered by the CNCC when they next meet and they are the best group to be making these decisions.

 

[Dave254]

are the metal steps in wall still there in Old Ing/Dismal Hill ?

They are still there (or at least they were when I used them last week!)

 

[Badlad]

If, whoever placed these stemples had planned to install any more then I hope the concern shown here will put a stop to it - for now anyway.  Although the person or persons involved haven't come forward publicly a number of different groups are trying to get to the bottom of the matter.  I'm sure the likes of CRO and CNCC have given it some thought but I doubt any outcome will be immediate.  We should consider that these may have been installed with the best of intentions for a genuine purpose.  We should also consider that there are many man-made and fixed aids across the caves of the Dales so this is not unprecedented but very difficult for everyone to agree on where the line is drawn.

 

[Simon Beck]

When I initially saw the pictures it never occurred to me that anybody other than the rescue services would require a modification like this, especially considering how frequently it gets used by them. For my part I owe the organisation an apology for jumping to conclusions, sorry. My cynical response I'm afraid is the result of prior episodes..
Regardless of whether those responsible come forward they need to go I think! It's sounding more and more like the work of non cavers, those that don't know any better etc.

 

[swinstobob]

As a member of the 'obvious recue team',  and a member of the Ops group for said team,  I can tell you that any permanent rigging or aids we fit are always done in consultation with CNCC or,  above ground,  the BMC and other interested parties. These steps have never been discussed or sanctioned by the teams Ops group.
On some rescues,  we need to rig extra hangers or bolts,  which are then either made good or referred to CNCC to see if they will allow them to remain.
Believe it or not, we do try not to damage the cave environment.

These certainly are not sanction by CRO. The Cave Rescue Organisation did not install them.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[Badlad]

Although these may not have been sanctioned by the CRO they were installed by a prominent member of the CRO team for cave rescue purposes - were they not?

There is a worthy debate to be had here as we could pre-install fixed aids in many caves in order to assist cave rescues should they happen in the future.

 

[Simon Beck]

So nobody else in the organisation knew anything about it except the prominent member!? What a load of bullshit! 

 

[JJ]

For the record I am as pissed off about this as everyone else.

I attended the CRO Opps meeting on the 11th April 2018 and this was minuted, with names redacted (xxxxx).

Equipment
? A discussion on the KMC ropes following a trial by xxxxx and xxxxx.
? All Knots to be removed from the rope and stored with karabiners
? Locations of extra bolt placings to be forwarded to CNCC ACTION xxxxx, xxxxx
? Tandem pulley for the wire section to be bought ACTION xxxxx

I have a clear memory of this meeting and at no time where stemples discussed or the instillation of extra anchors except through the CNCC. I do not believe the person who may be responsible attended this meeting or is in any of those redacted names above.

 

[cap n chris]

Perhaps the solution (for future reference) is to drill/rockhammer natural-looking footholds into the rock rather than have visible protruding metal staples which clearly seem to cause teacup tsunami(s) and disproportionate indignation. Same person(s) could do either. The effort/time involved would be similar. Could be an ideal workaround.

 

[Balmerfish]

well this is all clear as mud.
Perhaps the best way forward is to not embarrass anyone with " them them " type debates. But to have a constructive convo about what happens now ?