Metal Steps KMC

[langcliffe]

I could climb the pitch without aid 30 years ago or so and I was a pretty rubbish climber

Me too. I can't see why you would need aids. If you were doing a through trip from Simpson's or Swinsto exiting via KMC and felt that you weren't competent to free climb the pitch then just pop in and rig it beforehand.

I spotted these on Saturday, and they are nowhere near the climb into the Roof Tunnel. They are on part of the high level traverse on the true left - I assumed at the time they they were located at the most awkward section of the traverse. I wonder if they are anything to do with commercial caving?

 

[Simon Beck]

I've only seen the pictures myself, but from what I gather they are not an aid to ascending the Roof Tunnel pitch, they're an addition to the high level traverse within the ceiling of the Master Cave.

 

[Ian Ball]

Forgive my questioning but are they a 'product'?  or a bent bit of rebar and resin anchored in?  Are they inox, mild, another steel or some other alloy?

 

[Wolfo]

Guessed from the picture they are badly homemade (no constant bending angles, so no bending jig was used) and from mild, galavanized construction steel (second picture - a bit of rust?).
Stainless steel is a bit of critical, as you should know exactly the used material if you do cold bending.

Resined/glued/cemented in - hopefully yes. 
Otherwise the shitty drillghost should be attached by some tradtional hangmans knot to his "work", guilty of building suicide anchors.
But cannot imagine someone so dump.

 

[mch]

I spotted these on Saturday, and they are nowhere near the climb into the Roof Tunnel. They are on part of the high level traverse on the true left - I assumed at the time they they were located at the most awkward section of the traverse. I wonder if they are anything to do with commercial caving?

Ah - thanks for clarifying that langcliffe.

 

[Inferus]

why ? - because someone thinks they're needed or useful
you presumably don't

in the same way that most people think P Bolts are useful and others don't

As per previous posts that have suggested similar; they've not been needed for decades, so why now? Is it now open season for anyone to install whatever they like, anywhere they please, just because something is a tiny bit tricky? 

 

[langcliffe]

As per previous posts that have suggested similar; they've not been needed for decades, so why now? Is it now open season for anyone to install whatever they like, anywhere they please, just because something is a tiny bit tricky? 

They are incredibly unsightly. I suspect that unless someone comes up with a good reason for them being there, they won't last long.

 

[Wayland Smith]

Are there any commercial operators using the system? I would be asking there.

 

[Wolfo]

Are there any commercial operators using the system? I would be asking there.

Those kicks are know (at least here in Germany) from the mining business, but are out of use since decades.
Much thicker material and deeper holes of cause.

As for me, no commercial use today.

 

[Simon Beck]

If these aids (or at least some) have been there for as long as some folk are claiming, possibly a year, why haven't the obvious suspects come forward and disassociated themselves from the act before word got out. I find it hard to believe this has gone unnoticed by those I speak of. 

 

[langcliffe]

If these aids (or at least some) have been there for as long as some folk are claiming, possibly a year, why haven't the obvious suspects come forward and disassociated themselves from the act before word got out. I find it hard to believe this has gone unnoticed by those I speak of.

I don't think that they have been there for that long. Alex thinks he remembers something at the climb that has been there for some time, but I haven't seen anything there other than a couple of bolts. I last went through KMC on May 23rd, and I am reasonably sure that at least one of the two of us would have spotted them if they were in place then - they certainly shouted out to me on Saturday.

I can't be certain, though.

 

[Balmerfish]

Forgive my questioning but are they a 'product'?  or a bent bit of rebar and resin anchored in?  Are they inox, mild, another steel or some other alloy?

Ian-

Ok i will try to answer best i can - they looked like bits of rebar that that been shaped and put in place using resin. They looked like they had bits of white plastic on them, which we saw other evidence of. I could be wrong on that , i was viewing from below.  There are similar to stuff ive seen used in the mines.  Thats the extent of my metal steps knowledge

It is completely possible that they have been hear since before July and i just didnt spot them.

 

[Cave_Troll]

https://www.raumerclimbing.com/eng/prodotti_dettaglio.asp?prod=%F816_mm-270x300_stemple_rung_-_raumer-classic-_model-ribbed_bar&qi=0-21-378&qinav=0-21-c

 

[Simon Wilson]

why ? - because someone thinks they're needed or useful
you presumably don't

in the same way that most people think P Bolts are useful and others don't

Are you saying that there are people who don't approve of the anchor scheme? Would you like to enlarge on that?

 

[Ian Ball]

https://www.raumerclimbing.com/eng/prodotti_dettaglio.asp?prod=%F816_mm-270x300_stemple_rung_-_raumer-classic-_model-ribbed_bar&qi=0-21-378&qinav=0-21-c

 

That's a deep drill hole!

 

[Alex]

why ? - because someone thinks they're needed or useful
you presumably don't

in the same way that most people think P Bolts are useful and others don't

Are you saying that there are people who don't approve of the anchor scheme? Would you like to enlarge on that?

I guess people may think it's too easy or something like that. I for one am all for the anchor scheme, I mean on conservation grounds it saves drilling a new bolt hole every 5 - 10 years. Anyway's off topic, I suggest splitting if anchor scheme is going to be discussed further.

P.s. Well done on doing Marble sink!

 

[Simon Wilson]

why ? - because someone thinks they're needed or useful
you presumably don't

in the same way that most people think P Bolts are useful and others don't

Are you saying that there are people who don't approve of the anchor scheme? Would you like to enlarge on that?

I guess people may think it's too easy or something like that. I for one am all for the anchor scheme, I mean on conservation grounds it saves drilling a new bolt hole every 5 - 10 years. Anyway's off topic, I suggest splitting if anchor scheme is going to be discussed further.

P.s. Well done on doing Marble sink!

I think it's on topic. There are some people who don't understand the reason why we have an anchor scheme. They tend to be cavers who aren't old enough to know what was happening before. If you look around at the head of some ptiches you will see an unsightly assortment of redundant metalwork. There used to be a free for all with people installing all manner of stuff in a totally anarchistic way. The majority of cavers viewed what was happening as very undesirable. The CNCC started to install anchors in a systematic and regulated way.

Cave Troll compared the anchor scheme to someone installing what appear to be via ferratta steps and the two things are totally at odds. The purpose of the anchor scheme is to remove the need for people installing DIY anchors. The majority of cavers understand why we have the anchor scheme and approve of it. I think most cavers would dissaprove of anybody installing fixed aids in caves which were not entirely neccessary for cavers to get down the cave and especially if they damaged the cave and could not easily be removed. That's the complete opposite of the anchor scheme.

 

[Cave_Troll]

i was saying that its a sliding scale.

Some people might say "i've always free climbed it, whats the problem?"
Some people may think we should be rigging off nuts, slings and stemples that we remove when finished.
others say that to get safely down that hole anchors of some kind are useful
others may feel that a via ferrata may be the way forward.

 

[Simon Wilson]

i was saying that its a sliding scale.

Some people might say "i've always free climbed it, whats the problem?"
Some people may think we should be rigging off nuts, slings and stemples that we remove when finished.
others say that to get safely down that hole anchors of some kind are useful
others may feel that a via ferrata may be the way forward.

You're making this sound a lot more complicated than it is.

We have a sytem that has evolved over more than five decades of Dales caving. There used to be a line of stemples on Battleaxe Traverse. The people who initiated the systematic installation of anchors removed the stemples and installed a line of anchors (Spits at first, later replaced with resin anchors). They established a principal that we don't install aids such as stemples or steps but instead we install anchors and use rope to protect progress on natural holds. This provides the highest level of safety with the minimum impact on the cave.

The CNCC only install anchors and we install the minimum number. The anchor scheme is open to public scrutiny, any caver can express their views on anchor installations and their opinions are actively invited. They can request installations or apply to become an installer. It is because the anchor scheme is run by a democratically constituted body in a way that is open to public scrutiny that I can confidently say that it has the approval of the majority of cavers. It also has the approval of the Cave Rescue Organisation, BCA, Natural England and Yorkshire Dales National Park.

Imagine asking those bodies if they approve of somebody taking it on themselves to install via ferratta steps in a cave. Imagine what would happen if somebody just went and installed via ferratta steps across Middlefell Buttress or Malham Cove.

It is quite simple - most cavers know what is approved of and what is not approved of.

 

[alastairgott]

I can see cave trolls point, but this is a very specific case in a well known place. If we installed a via ferrata course round Titan, yes it would be impressive. But it would also be a travesty!
Common sense must prevail, stemples have no place in known pbolted caves.

We've installed some in a small mine in Derbyshire, but to negate the need for SRT entirely, as in the specific case it's a Faff, for no benefit.


Cave now, Faff later.