Author Topic: Application for BCA Secretary  (Read 16754 times)

Offline mikem

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #200 on: April 12, 2019, 09:01:01 pm »

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #200 on: April 12, 2019, 09:01:01 pm »

Offline Madness

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #201 on: April 12, 2019, 10:34:47 pm »
BMC AGM for comparison:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-agm-2019-report

I suspect there will be no comparison to the BCA AGM!



Online Badlad

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #202 on: April 14, 2019, 08:19:02 am »
So the deadline has passed, at midnight last night, for proposals to go before the AGM in eight weeks time.  Matt put his forward as described - I seconded one!  They are with the secretary and we will all find out in due course what others there are.  The only opportunity to vote on any of these is by being present in person at Horton in Ribblesdale village hall on 9th June.  Please come with your BCA membership card if you wish to vote.  Clubs can vote too by sending a representative with a letter of authority from a club officer.

This is an opportunity to change BCA for the better and make it an organisation that cavers can be proud of.  It is only a start but the green shoots are there in all quarters.  I hope that in years to come we will look back fondly on BCA, our organisation, and remember how close we came to loosing Matt before he even started.  Not everyone in BCA welcomes change so we do need to make it happen.

Yesterday - another six hour marathon council meeting.  Some battles fought but none too bloody and a lot of good business done... and just to please Droid it is now £252K  ;)

Offline Cavematt

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #203 on: April 14, 2019, 12:54:55 pm »
It was certainly a marathon BCA Council meeting, but one that covered a lot of ground and which was well chaired and mostly good natured. I took 27 pages of hand-written minutes, which I’ll be trying to make sense of and write up over the coming weeks.

It is perhaps no surprise that the meetings are long; there is a lot to get through, and a reasonable amount was achieved yesterday. Praise is due to the current Acting Secretary who has addressed a lot of the untidiness resulting from the lack of a long-term Secretary for about four years. Lots of this isn’t high profile or glamourous stuff, and is easily overlooked or overshadowed by some of the more radical modernisation discussions here, but it must not be forgotten. It’s fair to say that Robin (current Acting Secretary) and I differ in opinion on many things, but we share the same enthusiasm to see the BCA be successful, and I am extremely grateful for him serving as Acting Secretary over the last year or so. If indeed I am to become Secretary in June, I know I inherit a house that has much of its background infrastructure well in order thanks to his efforts.

There are lots of very encouraging signs of modernisation ahead too, and applications forms for Council positions and proposal documents were floating around in abundance yesterday.

The new Insurance Manager/Treasurer is doing an outstanding job and presented options for the BCA to be able to offer personal accident (Death and Disability) as part of the BCA insurance which is given as a benefit of membership. There will be a consultation over the coming months to see if this is something the wider membership wish to adopt. There is also lots of work ongoing to set up an expedition/overseas insurance policy via an insurance provider, which can be available to cavers, and which will hopefully be much more suitable than any current policy on the market. The hope is that cavers can take out this policy in the confidence that the BCA has give it the thumbs-up for covering everything an expedition/overseas caver might require.

There was a lengthy discussion about the BCA newsletter. Currently this is not emailed out to members (those who have provided their email address) due to GDPR fears. There was frustration with this, and a general belief that GDPR does not prevent the BCA from sending newsletters to their members. Some concerns were raised that the newsletter constitutes ‘marketing’ but these fears were quashed by citing examples of much larger national organisations who send out newsletters regardless. Fear and overinterpretation of GDPR seems to be the main reason hampering the BCA from communicating with its members, and of 20 voting Council members, 18 clearly felt this was unjustified and voted in favour of emailing the newsletter out to members who have provided email addresses and who, as part of this, have opted-in to receive such communications.

I would like to appeal to BCA members to please register for BCA online and opt-in to receive email communications:

https://members.british-caving.org.uk/users/login

By doing so it means the BCA can communicate important news and details to you relating directly to your membership, BCA activities or matters of key importance to British Caving (not marketing!). We’re not talking about tonnes of emails here… probably only a handful each year.

My proposals (discussed earlier in this thread) were put forward and will appear in the AGM Agenda, which should be made available no later than 28th April on the BCA website. They are going to be controversial, as they represent a big change to some of the cornerstones of BCA operations, so it is important to take time to consider them carefully.

My gut feeling from all the conversations I have had, and my perception at the last few Council meetings, is that assuming the turnout to the BCA AGM is limited to the usual regular attendees, my most significant proposals will split the room and thus have a strong chance of being rejected. Therefore, if you feel strongly about my proposals, then I urge you to turn out to the AGM to vote; as Badlad has said above, this means both individuals (BCA cards needed) and voting clubs (letter of authorisation from club Officer needed).

Tim and Jane Allen have also put forward a similarly controversial proposal regarding the P&I Committee, which has my full support and endorsement.

Personally, I’m excited about the future of the BCA and really encouraged by the number of new and young people getting involved, all passionate about making a big difference for British Caving. What we need from BCA members is the same positivity and a little more engagement… even if this is just in the form of registering for BCA Online, reading the newsletters and understanding more about what the BCA does.
York Caving Club
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BCA Secretary

Offline Cookie

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #204 on: April 14, 2019, 05:41:15 pm »
[Re] BCA newsletter. Currently this is not emailed out to members ...

Matt did you mean to write this? The statement isn't true as you should know because you are signed up to receive the Newsletter by email.

The Newsletter is sent to all those who have given consent.

From the last Newsletter on, it is sent to all the clubs with a request to forward to their members.
Dave Cooke. BCA: IT Working Party Convenor, Web Services

Offline NewStuff

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #205 on: April 14, 2019, 05:57:23 pm »
[Re] BCA newsletter. Currently this is not emailed out to members ...

Matt did you mean to write this? The statement isn't true as you should know because you are signed up to receive the Newsletter by email.

The Newsletter is sent to all those who have given consent.

From the last Newsletter on, it is sent to all the clubs with a request to forward to their members.

While I certainly can't speak for Matt, it seems to me you've answered your own question.
Permission? Wassat den?

Offline Jenny P

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #206 on: April 14, 2019, 06:05:00 pm »
Problem is that not all club secretaries who receive the Newsletter forward it on to their members, so many of the club individual members won't even know it exists.

I thought we had agreed yesterday that, from now on, we would email the Newsletter to all individual members whose email addresses we have, provided that the email contains an option to "unsubscribe" for those who definitely do not want it.

Offline Cookie

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #207 on: April 14, 2019, 06:22:24 pm »
Hi Jenny, yes that is what the majority of Council agreed.

Dave Cooke. BCA: IT Working Party Convenor, Web Services

Offline Cavematt

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #208 on: April 14, 2019, 06:30:20 pm »
Cookie; I am confused. We had a 30 minute discussion in yesterday's Council meeting in which you voiced your objection to emailing the newsletter out to all members on GDPR grounds. However you say above that we are already doing this. Is the word 'individual' simply missing from my original posting?
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Offline Cookie

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #209 on: April 14, 2019, 06:37:29 pm »
Since the Newsletter went digital it has been emailed out to those individual members who have consented to receiving it. Consent is obtained for DIMs on their renewal form. CIM need to go to BCAOnline to give their consent because we do not ask the Clubs to gain their members consent on BCA's behalf.

An addition the Newsletter is emailed out the all the Clubs with a request to forward on to their members.

Dave Cooke. BCA: IT Working Party Convenor, Web Services

Offline Jenny P

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #210 on: April 14, 2019, 06:47:42 pm »
I think the problem comes in referring simply to "members".  This can mean club members, direct individual members or club individual members.

Basically, BCA has the email contact addresses for all Clubs, because it uses them to send out membership lists for "club individual member" subscriptions - but this will normally be the email of the officer in the club who deals with subscriptions for "club individual members" each year, and this may not be the Secretary. 

BCA also has all the DIM emails because these are "direct individual members" who communicate with BCA when they renew their subscriptions each year. 

BCA does not have the emails of all the "club individual members" because some clubs supply this information on behalf of their members when they send in their lists; however other clubs do not supply this information.  BCA has no direct contact with these "club individual members" whose emails are not supplied by their club.

That's why we have a problem communicating with some of our individual members.

Hope that makes sense!

Offline Cookie

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #211 on: April 14, 2019, 07:23:35 pm »
[Re] BCA newsletter. Currently this is not emailed out to members ...

Matt did you mean to write this? The statement isn't true as you should know because you are signed up to receive the Newsletter by email.

The Newsletter is sent to all those who have given consent.

From the last Newsletter on, it is sent to all the clubs with a request to forward to their members.

While I certainly can't speak for Matt, it seems to me you've answered your own question.

I should have said In addition from the last Newsletter on, it is sent to all the clubs with a request to forward to their members.

The digital Newsletter has always been emailed out to individual members with consent. Recently we started emailing it out to the clubs as well.

Matt's statement  that "[Re] BCA newsletter. Currently this is not emailed out to members ..." is false.

Cookie; I am confused. We had a 30 minute discussion in yesterday's Council meeting in which you voiced your objection to emailing the newsletter out to all members on GDPR grounds. However you say above that we are already doing this. Is the word 'individual' simply missing from my original posting?

I objected to sending out the Newsletter to Individual members where we do not have consent. PECR requires that we have consent.
Dave Cooke. BCA: IT Working Party Convenor, Web Services

Offline Cookie

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #212 on: April 14, 2019, 09:08:43 pm »
There's clearly some confusion. Not surprisingly since this came up in AOB at the end of a long meeting.

I have offered a way forwards to Council at a previous meeting. It does require some programming effort to upgrade BCA Online in order to implement it and thus has to jostle with all the other priorities.

Council's alternative solution isn't a quick fix because it also requires some programming effort to implement.
Dave Cooke. BCA: IT Working Party Convenor, Web Services

Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #213 on: April 14, 2019, 09:53:50 pm »
I objected to sending out the Newsletter to Individual members where we do not have consent. PECR requires that we have consent.
And I wonder how many clubs who forward it have sought consent from their members? 

Cookie is right about CEPR given that BCA's policy at http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=about:documents:privacy_notice states:

"E-news items

With consent we email items of news that we believe will be of interest to our members. "


So Council is proposing to break the law rather than just change the policy.

It could all be easily solved by changing the conditions of membership by changing the policy to include receiving the newsletter as well as for good measure, receiving material relating to all general meetings - something which is not spelt out.  But I suggest who ever is going to sort out this mess has a look at https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protection/guide-to-the-general-data-protection-regulation-gdpr/principles/ before making a move (Cookie excepted - though it might be nice if he got his draft checked for omissions).

Offline 2xw

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #214 on: April 15, 2019, 12:31:39 am »
It should be a check box whenever someone renews/gets aembership, like every other organisation on earth. Logging on to BCA online is a pain in the arse (I've never been able to)

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #215 on: April 15, 2019, 12:38:15 am »
We shouldn't even be asking for consent, as consent is not required under the 'legitimate interest' basis and it is misleading to ask for it. We should ensure that a) there is no marketing in the BCA newsletter (which I don't believe there is) and b) an opt-out is available.

But otherwise, we really, really need to start getting this useful information out to people.

Offline Cavematt

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #216 on: April 15, 2019, 08:17:20 am »
Hi Cookie; I agree that there seems to be some misunderstanding here so my apologies. From the nature of the discussion on Saturday it seemed to present to me that the BCA weren't emailing the newsletter out to anyone. Certainly, I haven't ever received it (although I will happily concede this is more likely to be my email system filing it as spam or junk). Therefore, my statement in my original post is incorrect as you have said.

However, I am in agreement with Andrew that under Legitimate Interest we shouldn't need to be asking permission to communicate essential information about the BCA to our members, and I would have thought that a newsletter communicating the current work of the BCA would be considered a reasonable expectation of membership, along with emails about membership, meetings etc.

The CNCC cites legitimate interest for this purpose: https://cncc.org.uk/data-protection.php

I note that the BCA privacy policy does specify a need for specific consent for the BCA to email news items out (although 'distribution of publications' is listed as a membership service in the above line thus not requiring specific consent, so where the newsletter falls is unclear... is it news...  or a publication... I'd say both);

http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=about:documents:privacy_notice

I suspect a slight review of this policy in respect to the Council decision on Saturday is needed, OR a Council decision that the newsletter is considered to fall under the category of publications rather than news (that one may be a difficult argument).
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Online Badlad

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #217 on: April 15, 2019, 08:24:00 am »
There's clearly some confusion. Not surprisingly since this came up in AOB at the end of a long meeting.


I'm not sure who is confused but this issue was discussed under item 13 on the agenda (out of 26 items).    We discussed it for about 20 minutes of a six hour meeting, voted on a proposal and agreed to send out the newsletter to all members we had email for.  I know you voted against for GDPR reasons but numerous attendees made the case against applying a narrow interpretation.  I particularly liked the exasperated view expressed by the ex-chairman which went something like this,

We are cavers, not timid tiddley winkers.  We go underground, take risks and face dangers on every trip.  Yet we don't seem to have the bottle to send out our own newsletter to our own members.

Whatever the confusion, council was clear in its direction.  Whatever needs to be done, changing the wording on the membership forms, changing the policy, taking the risk, we should be sending our own newsletter out to all our members.

Offline Cookie

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #218 on: April 15, 2019, 08:56:53 am »
Badlad, you clearly went to a different meeting from me. It was discussed at the end of the meeting. Matt will be able to confirm that.

But I agree with your account of the wishes of Council. The only problem is that it is against the law. It was suggested that Council consult a third party expert. As they don't believe me, and as the person Council appointed to deal with this I have researched this in great detail, I recommend that is done before acting.

The law you need to be looking at is the Privacy and Electronic Communications Regulations (PECR) not GDPR. As such the Legitimate Interest argument doesn't apply.

There are ways but Councils current choice is not it.

To most people receiving unsolicited email from an organisation they are a member of isn't a problem, we all get so much spam anyway. However to a few it is a real trigger point. We should be respecting their wishes.
Dave Cooke. BCA: IT Working Party Convenor, Web Services

Offline Cookie

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #219 on: April 15, 2019, 09:18:03 am »
Hi Matt, no need to apologise but thanks anyway.

The problem only applies to CIM members. Whatever you do, you need consent from the individual at some point.

One option is to ask the clubs to obtain that consent for us and pass it along to BCA with the other membership information which they pass on in the form of a spreadsheet already. I doubt the clubs will be amenable but we can ask and see what response we get.

The other option is to exercise BCA's rights under the soft opt-in. That allows, as part of the joining/renewal process, BCA to send an email to ask the question. That's is my preferred option but requires an upgrade to BCA Online to make the process manageable. If you can think of a practicable manual system, be my guest.

At my initiation, Council did agree at this meeting to form a sub-committee to be responsible for the ongoing data protection issues. I suggest that that sub-committee look at this again.
Dave Cooke. BCA: IT Working Party Convenor, Web Services

Offline MarkS

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #220 on: April 15, 2019, 09:24:44 am »
Does PECR not just relate to marketing?

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #221 on: April 15, 2019, 09:25:32 am »
Badlad, you clearly went to a different meeting from me. It was discussed at the end of the meeting. Matt will be able to confirm that.

The early agenda items all appear to take more time so I think you can both be right here? I think it was discussed under item 13.2, but this did occur later in the meeting then the numbers alone would suggest.


Quote
The law you need to be looking at is the Privacy and Electronic Communications Regulations (PECR) not GDPR. As such the Legitimate Interest argument doesn't apply.

Am I right in thinking that this is (privacy policy aside) the only major disagreement here?

If the newsletter is direct marketing, then it requires opt-in consent. You believe the newsletter is, or contains, direct marketing. Council has decided it is not direct marketing and thus PECR does not apply.

Quote
However to a few it is a real trigger point. We should be respecting their wishes.

An opt-out is always a requirement. If we are using legitimate interest then it has to be something that a reasonable person would expect to get (as a membership benefit, in our case). Some people may not be reasonable but we can't permanently hamstring the BCA for those.

From the ICO guidance:
"Direct marketing is not limited to advertising goods or services for sale. It also includes promoting an organisation’s aims and Ideals. This means that the direct marketing rules in the DPA and PECR will apply to the promotional, campaigning and fundraising activities of not-for-profit organisations. For example, a charity or political party contacting particular individuals to appeal for funds or votes, or contacting supporters to encourage them to write to their MP or attend a public meeting or rally, would be covered by the direct marketing rules."

I think this is something we should be aware of but in the newsletter we are not encouraging people to donate, or asking them to do anything, we are just providing information as a membership benefit.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 09:44:32 am by andrewmc »

Offline mikem

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #222 on: April 15, 2019, 10:00:34 am »
Even if it does contain marketing, CIMs have bought in to membership, so you have a prior business relationship anyway...

Mike

Offline ali_mac

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #223 on: April 15, 2019, 03:03:34 pm »
I for one can say that I have signed up to receive the newsletter by e-mail, but have never actually received it.

IMHO, this all comes under legitimate interest anyway.

I still think that the worst thing, is that in order to vote for change, I must travel from central London, 5 hours assuming no breaks, for a meeting on a Sunday, presumably taking a day off on Monday to do so.
Unfortunately, I can't justify the diesel costs, or the time.

My club will also likely not send a representative for similar reasons.  We aren't a big club, and we aren't a rich club, and I suppose that means we don't get a say.

Offline badger

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Re: Application for BCA Secretary
« Reply #224 on: April 15, 2019, 04:43:01 pm »
newsletter aside, driving to the agm, I will be travelling up Friday night from Chichester so even further than London, in fact where ever the agm is be it mendip 3 hours, south wales 3 1/2, Derbyshire also 3 1/2 to 4 or north 5 hours plus, I have a lengthy journey, I like a few in the south make the effort, all depends if you feel the need to get involved or your happy with the way things are.