Author Topic: Northern club feedback  (Read 906 times)

Offline CNCC

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Northern club feedback
« on: May 11, 2019, 10:45:54 am »
Hello all

The following is an email I have just sent out to all CNCC full member clubs. However, I am conscious that sadly only a small proportion of northern clubs are actually CNCC full members and the following is something that would benefit from widest possible input by BCA member clubs and individuals. Note that all regional councils have been asked to gather opinion from their members on this, so if you belong to another regional council then you should be receiving a similar communication from them in due course.

The British Caving Association are currently looking at additional ways they can support and provide membership benefits to cavers, particularly given their budgetary surplus over recent years.

One of the possibilities that has been raised, and which has received quite a bit of positivity, is the BCA providing personal accident (death and disability) insurance as a benefit of membership, as well as their existing public liability insurance. As with the public liability insurance, this must be given as a benefit of membership to all BCA members; there cannot be an ‘opt in/out’ option as the BCA cannot sell insurance and we have been informed that this means the benefit must be applied to all full members of the BCA regardless of whether it is actually wanted by that individual.

The BCA Insurance manager, Howard Jones, has been working with the BCA’s insurers and identified a group policy that could be provided at an annual cost of £13000. Howard proposes that this could be funded through BCA surplus, rather than by increasing membership fees.

It is worth bearing in mind that should the situation change in the future and funding of this becomes financially unviable (either due to increased insurance premium, e.g. following claims, or reduced BCA surplus), the decision to continue include this as a membership benefit would be reviewed on a year by year basis.

Please find details below provided by Howard for consideration by all BCA members. Regional Councils and constituent bodies have been asked to canvass opinion and feedback on whether this would be a membership benefit people would want, and whether they would be happy for £13000 of BCA money to be spent annually providing this membership benefit. It is worth noting that Howard is also the BCA treasurer, so we can be confident that this has been fully costed.

I am happy to collect feedback on behalf of northern clubs; I would appreciate it if you could please discuss this with your members and feed back to me the general feeling amongst your clubs; roughly what proportion of your membership do you think would support this?

If I could get feedback in time for the CNCC Committee meeting on 22nd June, that would be good.

At the moment the BCA is looking for an ‘indicative opinion’  to give an idea of whether there is appetite for this from the members, so all feedback is appreciated.

From my personal perspective, I think the BCA is absolutely right to be looking at what additional benefits it can provide for members (as well as what additional it can do for British Caving) using the funds it has available, and Howard has done an excellent job at coming up with this as an option. The question is whether this is something that enough members would actually want.

Please discuss in your clubs and feed back to me your thoughts (secretary[at]cncc.org.uk), which I will pass onto the BCA as the indicative feeling of northern cavers. If anyone has any questions you can contact Howard directly (contact details on BCA website).

Kind regards
Matt Ewles
Secretary, Council of Northern Caving Clubs
 

The following notes are from Howard Jones, BCA Insurance Manager:

Personal accident (Death and disability) insurance is one of those polices which is very expensive to take out as an individual (especially as a caver) but much cheaper as a group. I asked Howdens to look at a policy for BCA members to go on top of the liability policy already in place as a member benefit. They have advised there is a policy available at a cost of £2.50 for a caver and £0.34 for a non-caver which in the event of death or disability due to a caving event would pay out £50k. Given our current membership the cost would be some £13,000, less than our surplus in each of the last 2 years. A caving event is defined as the walk to and from the cave (or mine) and the trip underground. Hence the drive to the cave would not be covered.

As well as Death, the following expenses would be covered:

•   Accident Medical Expenses: £2,500
•   Coma Benefit: £50 per full 24 hours up to a maximum of 104 weeks
•   Convalescence: £200 or £100 for Insured Persons above the age of 70
•   Counselling: £250 up to a maximum of £5,000 per Insured Person
•   Funeral Expenses: £10,000
•   Hospitalisation: £50 per full 24 hours up to a maximum of 52 weeks.
•   Paralysis: Up to £50,000

If our members don’t have such cover that would respond in the event of a caving incident, this is a significant and cheap member benefit.

Please note this is a proposed member benefit and as such it all or nothing, there is no opt out. The cost of £13K per annum can be funded in various ways: out of the current surplus (£20k in the last few years), reducing reserves, or increasing subscriptions by the amount of the policy (£2.50 per person).

Proposal: To take out this policy as a member benefit and fund from current surplus.
Council of Northern Caving Clubs; Working together for northern caving since 1963

Offline Pegasus

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Re: Northern club feedback
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2019, 03:34:29 pm »
Bump.

Online mikem

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Re: Northern club feedback
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2019, 03:55:00 pm »
There has been an extensive discussion & poll on this subject on Facebook. Not quite sure why it's only in CNCC forum on here. Most people have been in favour, but there are some questions about it still to answered.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Northern club feedback
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2019, 05:55:51 pm »
There has been an extensive discussion & poll on this subject on Facebook. Not quite sure why it's only in CNCC forum on here. Most people have been in favour, but there are some questions about it still to answered.

Because the CNCC is getting ahead of the game in engagement with its members, for which it is to be congratulated...

The current setup of the BCA means the regional councils are supposed to be passing on this sort of information and consulting with their member clubs.

PS I am the guilty party for starting the poll on FB; I wanted to get a feel for the individual members opinions (as an individual member rep) but didn't want to steal this thread or duplicate the discussion! Currently the (highly unscientific) poll sits at 74 in favour, 2 against...

PPS a few clarifications that have arisen:
a) there will be no collection of personal data e.g. pre-existing medical conditions
b) there will be no age limits
c) it will _probably_ not cover professional caving (but will obviously cover non-professional caving by professional cavers)
d) several people asked about cave diving; although personally I suspect it won't this question is being asked.

Offline FionaH

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Re: Northern club feedback
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2019, 06:08:39 pm »
Whereabouts on FB is this being discussed? Thought I was following all the relevant pages but this one has passed me by.

Online mikem

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Re: Northern club feedback
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2019, 07:13:13 pm »
 UK caving and speleological community

Offline darren

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Re: Northern club feedback
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2019, 09:05:17 pm »
Would you like to enlighten the rest of us about this poll?

Did you use Facebook rather than this forum for any reason?
No, I'm playing all the right notes

Offline Ian Ball

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Re: Northern club feedback
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2019, 09:36:22 pm »

Did you use Facebook rather than this forum for any reason?


I believe Andrewnmc wanted to get a feel for the individual members opinions (as an individual member rep) but didn't want to steal this thread or duplicate the discussion!     ;)

Offline Badlad

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Re: Northern club feedback
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2019, 09:30:39 am »
The way this is proposed sounds.... well to good to be true.

Howdens the BCA insurers are a fully commercial company whose goal is to make profit.  They seem to be very successful at that reporting revenue of £535 million with a profit of £152 million in 2017.

The premium to BCA of £13,000 per year offers a pay out up to £50,000 on death.  Howdens did not make those kind of levels of profit by paying out 50K very often. 

The BCA have paid out approx £40,000 of members money per year since they were established as BCA in 2004.  This is principally for Public Liability Insurance for cavers.  That's some £600,000 to date and no published claims.  Is this good value for money?  Much is made of the need for insurance cover but some cavers suggest the reality of claims seem to suggest this need is exaggerated.

BCA rightly must avoid 'selling' insurance but the reality is that the main member benefit is the offer of insurance.  Do we really need to tie ourselves into even more? 

Online droid

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Re: Northern club feedback
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2019, 01:38:50 pm »
The profit is even better than that.
Insurance firms invest premiums in interest accruing accounts and investments. So interest on these operations adds to the profits.....
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline topcat

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Re: Northern club feedback
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2019, 05:41:45 pm »
I can't be bothered to look and compare the fine r details but this sounds very similar to an insurance scheme offered to the BMC and associated climbing bodies.

It was rejected.  The benefits were few and unlikely to ever be issued.   If an insurance body is offering it you can get they have done their sums very carefully........and the answer will be in their favour. 

Which is fair enough of course.   The chances of a cave needing to claim under this is small, and the chances of being successful smaller...

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Northern club feedback
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2019, 07:56:41 pm »
I can't be bothered to look and compare the fine r details but this sounds very similar to an insurance scheme offered to the BMC and associated climbing bodies.

BMC 'full' individual membership (not club membership) includes personal accident which I assume is similar to this cover.

In fact:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/we-bet-you-didnt-know-about-bmc-personal-accident-cover

Same insurer; probably the same cover but the BMC have lower cover limits (£10k death/permanent disability instead of £50k) and worldwide coverage (and it looks, from that article, like it has been claimed on to the tune of about £20k total).

Extra details on the proposed BCA insurance: either UK only, or country of residence only, or there is a worldwide option (possibly a different price), age limit of 80, doesn't cover 'any naturally occurring condition or degenerative process'.