Author Topic: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals  (Read 5009 times)

Offline Badlad

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2020, 08:56:47 am »
I'm the CNCC representative on BCA council.  I need to report back to the north what is going on in BCA.  Our committee, our clubs and their individual members have a right to know what is being done with their money and in their name.  Social media and this caving forum in particular is a great way of communication with cavers.  Already at BCA council, attempts have been made to prevent officers commenting on some of the shenanigans that have been on going with BCA IT.  CNCC strive to be open and transparent and expect me to be the same.  So I am not an officer, I am a representative.  How can BCA prevent me from carrying out what my organisation expects of me?

And what of sanctions from breaching any social media policy that might be adopted? We had a guy at BCA recently that refused to accept the mandate specifically given to him by an AGM.  The BCA council then re-enforced that mandate and instructed him to follow it.  He still refused.  Council eventually removed him from one of his positions but he still held another.  He then conspired to cause further problems within the organisation which has, in part, led to several key volunteers resigning.  Now it appears that he is looking at returning to those same positions as before and getting his way.  Ah yes, what of sanctions indeed.  Are there any?

Offline kay

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2020, 09:33:39 am »
Matt has used his position as BCA at the bottom of each post in this topic. This implies he is posting in this role.


He's using his CaveMatt account to post, and making it very clear these are his personal views. I'm in no confusion at all about whether these are his individual views or BCA views.

Offline Benfool

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2020, 09:56:13 am »
Government cabinet ministers make their personal opinions perfectly clear on proposals put to government, so why shouldn't Matt and others make their opinions clear about proposals put to a BCA AGM.

I'd be very concerned if the people at the heart of BCA policy making, who have the most information and context about whats going on, couldn't make their opinions clear. Without context, some of the proposals put forward may seem sensible, however the context added by people like Will, Matt, Jane and Tim completely changes this.

B

Offline Ed

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2020, 10:12:34 am »
I'd be interested to know if the CSCC truly represents the views of the majority of southern cavers rather than what appears to be a small clique based in Mendip (well The Hunters)


Offline PeteHall

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2020, 10:18:51 am »
I'd be interested to know if the CSCC truly represents the views of the majority of southern cavers rather than what appears to be a small clique based in Mendip (well The Hunters)
I think not.

Because they're members of CSCC?

I think you will find that most members of CSCC clubs support the BCA CRoW campaign and also support bringing the BCA into the 21st century for that matter. This is reflected in recent ballots of the BCA membership, though unfortunately not reflected at CSCC committee level.
For many of us, the choice is between spending the rare moments of free time caving, or going to committee meetings. Quite frankly, there is no point going to committee meetings about caving if that means that you don't ever get to go caving. The result is that the committees are often left to the retired generation who have more free time, but whose views may not reflect the majority.
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Offline MarkS

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2020, 10:59:54 am »
Thanks Matt, for so clearly outlining your stance on these proposals.

I genuinely hope that someone supporting these proposals will come forward to give their perspective, given the concerns raised in this topic. The CSCC represent more than 40 different caving clubs, so there should be plenty of people in this bracket who can do so.

Offline darren

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2020, 11:15:00 am »
Cavers belonging to clubs that belong to CSCC who don't care about politics and want CSCC to represent them are hardly likely, by definition to be taking part in this debate. That is what the CSCC is for.

I did get someone from the CSCC area to briefly look at a thread and his only comment was "that's an hour I'm never going to get back". Even worse, he was watching Coronation Street at the same time.

I know I keep saying this but we on this forum are a bubble. Most cavers may care a bit if you ask them a specific question. That doesn't mean they care a lot, you now, care enough to vote in an on-line ballot that is effortless.


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Offline mikem

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2020, 11:20:44 am »
The majority don't even look at this forum...

I believe the main concerns are due to likelihood of landowners refusing permission to open new entrances, if they then have no control over access.

Offline Pegasus

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2020, 11:28:39 am »
The majority don't even look at this forum...


Well someone is looking at it.  There have been 442 people online so far today.


Offline Brains

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2020, 11:37:24 am »
I see a lot of negative input from CSCC but no positives, swamped by reasonable counters from many others
I see a lot of evasion over naming names
Who are these saboteurs?
So far I have seen only Cookie, Faye and Alan B named in this or similar threads.

Offline Badlad

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2020, 11:42:07 am »
The 'bubble' argument is a good one.  There is the BCA 'bubble', the AGM 'bubble', the CSCC 'bubble', the northern 'bubble', the Facebook 'bubble', the Descent 'bubble', we're all living in bubbles.

More people look at this forum than probably all other caving mediums.  Where else do cavers inform themselves - the BCA web site?  If you are representing cavers you'd probably want to inform yourself the best you can of all caving opinions - where are you going to get them from now that the Hunters is closed?  ;D

Offline MJenkinson

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2020, 11:46:35 am »
......this nursing home game of thrones needs to come to an end.

Bit late but ha! ;D

Offline mikem

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2020, 12:01:25 pm »
The majority don't even look at this forum...


Well someone is looking at it.  There have been 442 people online so far today.
Out of 6000+ members... Yes, this forum gets to more people than most other options, but it's still a minority.

I was referring to CSCC.

Offline PeteHall

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2020, 12:23:31 pm »
The majority don't even look at this forum...


Well someone is looking at it.  There have been 442 people online so far today.
Out of 6000+ members... Yes, this forum gets to more people than most other options, but it's still a minority.

I was referring to CSCC.

I believe that the 422 is the most online at one time, so far today. The total for the day will be very much higher as you can be sure that everyone who has been on hasn't been at the same time.

It's also the case that many prominent voices in the CSCC do use this forum, some of whom have been online within the last hour. They may however be put off contributing to the discussion as the majority opinion here does not reflect their own and they are likely to come under fire from their critics.
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Offline NewStuff

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2020, 12:33:11 pm »
I was referring to CSCC.

If you want to play minorities...

Why do a small minority of the CSCC think they can do an end-run around the vast majority BCA's membership that actually voted? Let's be honest here, that's what it is, a desperate attempt at keeping the status quo, which the majority clearly said they wanted to change.
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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2020, 12:36:58 pm »
No-one should feel intimidated enough to be unwilling to post reasonable, logical arguments on here. If it generates ugly responses, I'm sure our moderators would deal with them as appropriate.

All this discussion has been the result of two completely separate issues;

* the content of CSCC members' proposals

* the manner in which some people have allegedly been corresponding with our present Secretary (and other officers) in an inappropriate way.

Whether or not I agree with the CSCC proposals, I'd argue they have a perfect right to make them. If they go against what the majority want to see happen, they'll be voted out. I don't have any problem with that. I am very concerned if a volunteer, who has given so much time and energy to doing what he feels is right for the BCA, has been receiving abusive communications. Whatever one's opinion as to how BCA might move forwards, there would be no excuse for that.


Offline darren

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2020, 12:59:02 pm »
I've got to admit I'm guessing here a bit but from what has been posted on other threads.

CSCC didn't really want to join national organisation for fear of being overwhelmed by northern cavers.

National organisation and voting structure was set up in such a way to make things acceptable to CSCC. I.e. group votes being equal regardless of group membership. This is how parts of USA government and EU works for same reason.

Cavers, predominantly northern,  want to change rules allowing them to ignore (overwhelm) wishes of CSCC cavers.  Access arrangements are an example of this.

Looks like CSCC had a point all those years ago.
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Offline mikem

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2020, 01:04:21 pm »
I believe that the 422 is the most online at one time, so far today. The total for the day will be very much higher as you can be sure that everyone who has been on hasn't been at the same time.
& not all of them will have bothered logging in, but it also includes bots, overseas cavers & non-members of BCA, so is ball park anyway.

Does system record how many have looked at this thread?

Offline zomjon

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2020, 01:12:54 pm »
I notice that DarknessBelow has just posted the CSCC proposals and their justifications, I wonder if they would be ready to print Matt’s own thoughts on the proposals to provide a balanced view for their readers!

Offline mikem

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2020, 01:24:42 pm »
As more people read this, I don't think it matters.

Offline cavemanmike

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #45 on: April 17, 2020, 01:28:08 pm »
I notice that DarknessBelow has just posted the CSCC proposals and their justifications, I wonder if they would be ready to print Matt’s own thoughts on the proposals to provide a balanced view for their readers!
To be fair that's a matter for matt, not darkness below

Offline darren

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2020, 01:46:47 pm »
I notice that DarknessBelow has just posted the CSCC proposals and their justifications, I wonder if they would be ready to print Matt’s own thoughts on the proposals to provide a balanced view for their readers!

Would you expect the Labour party website to publish an opinion from a leading conservative?
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Offline Pete K

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2020, 02:00:44 pm »
I notice that DarknessBelow has just posted the CSCC proposals and their justifications, I wonder if they would be ready to print Matt’s own thoughts on the proposals to provide a balanced view for their readers!
Would you expect the Labour party website to publish an opinion from a leading conservative?
No, but Darkness below are not stating their support of the CSCC overtly on their website (that I can see), so your question is misleading as it is not a valid comparison.
You should be asking "Would you expect the BBC website to publish an opinions from leading conservative/labour/green/whatever candidates?".
Well, yes, obviously. A site claiming to be a one stop shop for caver news has a duty to deliver a balanced coverage, unless bias reporting is the goal to try and influence cavers one way or another.

Offline zomjon

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2020, 02:04:45 pm »
And to follow on from Pete’s comment, both the proposals from CSCC and their justifying points, are already posted here for all to see their arguments.

Offline Brains

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Re: Thoughts on the BCA AGM proposals
« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2020, 02:47:29 pm »
I've got to admit I'm guessing here a bit but from what has been posted on other threads.

CSCC didn't really want to join national organisation for fear of being overwhelmed by northern cavers.

National organisation and voting structure was set up in such a way to make things acceptable to CSCC. I.e. group votes being equal regardless of group membership. This is how parts of USA government and EU works for same reason.

Cavers, predominantly northern,  want to change rules allowing them to ignore (overwhelm) wishes of CSCC cavers.  Access arrangements are an example of this.

Looks like CSCC had a point all those years ago.


Seems to me the whole country has bent over backwards to try and accommodate the CSCC without success, and now they cant get their own and control the whole thing they are throwing the toys out the pram and trying to wreck the work of the BCA. It would also seem that through apathy the CSCC membership the ruling clique are allowed to do what they like and make up resolutions and proposals never seen by the majority of the people they should be representing

 

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