Author Topic: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)  (Read 1271 times)

Offline Von Trippenhof

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2020, 01:03:43 pm »
Pitlamp, On the idea of swappable batteries, a couple of years ago I was seduced by the promo videos of better swap stations. Now though I’ve changed my opinion to ‘probably not’. The battery tech has leapfrogged the need.

The cell technology is jumping on so fast that while the form and fit of the packaged battery hasn’t grown, the storage capacity of the packaged battery has increased hugely. Not just down to cell chemistry, but also manufacture and packaging knowledge. This development is continuing. The life of the cells with improved manufacturing and management is increasing too. So imagine we’re 2025 and you swap your latest tech battery for a fully charged but 2020 tech battery, you’re likely to be disappointed with the range.

There’s also the question of swap speed. To swap out a 400+V battery safely is a bit convoluted. Plus you would need to queue for the bay. All dead time. If you just plug in, you can be doing something useful. Eg. Having a wee. Or in your emergency scenario getting on the phone to the loved one to coordinate care/reassuring chat.

Rapid charge at the current 50 kW will give you 100+ miles in 20 mins. The 150 kW systems that most 2020 cars are capable of and charging infrastructure isrolling out now will cut that to 1/3. You don’t need to charge to full remember - just the range to get to your emergency.

Offline PeteHall

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2020, 01:28:46 pm »
phev well yes at a guess its and outlander?
It's actually a BMW X3 with a tiny battery and basically just a tax fiddle for company directors who can afford a posh new car and save on company car tax. However the relative range between summer and winter is presumably comparable to any other EV as relatively speaking, there are the same inefficiencies in winter.

Maybe buying new you might save money buying an EV over a diesel, but for those of us in the 2nd hand market, there just aren't the options.

Even new, I'm not sure what EV's exist that would be suitable to take the family camping in,  certainly not in my usual price range of £300 - £3,000

Servicing an ICE car needn't be expensive. I do all mine once a year and even using premium oil, I typically pay between £40 and £80 depending which vehicle. The V8 costs a bit more as there are 8 spark plugs, which can be a bit pricey,  but at 12mpg, that's the last of my worries  ;D

Regarding lifespan of batteries for EV's, I believe that some manufacturers offer these on lease now, so it's not so much of a worry as it used to be.
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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2020, 02:35:05 pm »
Thanks VT and PH - both your posts above have told me things I wasn't aware of and are very encouraging.

Living where I do in the Dales, I only actually saw my very first on street charging station recently (a single one, in Whalley near Clitheroe - and it was in use). I'm told they have them at Booths in Kirkby Lonsdale but I never shop there on principle since they started charging for parking. (Settle branch is very good and they don't charge to park.)

I'm lucky in that I could get my motor near enough to the house to use the domestic supply to charge up but if I ran out when out and about locally, there isn't really anywhere to top up. It's not as if you can ring the AA and ask them to bring you a gallon of electricity. (Maybe their vans will contain megabatteries in future, to do a quick boost just to get you going?) I guess this situation will only improve as time goes by.

I've found this an invaluable topic.

Online Fulk

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2020, 02:47:49 pm »
Quote
I'm told they have them at Booths in Kirkby Lonsdale but I never shop there on principle since they started charging for parking.

I'm not 100% sure about this, John, but my understanding is that they – Booths – were obliged to charge under the terms of their arrangement with the local authority, who actually do the charging; Booths go a fair way to ameliorating this by paying for your parking if you spend more that £5.

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2020, 03:02:59 pm »
Oh, it's the council is it? That makes me even more determined, after the recent rise in council tax of 5.2% - way above inflation (yet again). I'll stick with Settle branch.

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2020, 03:08:51 pm »
Actually - thinking about it - it's not the same council there is it? In which case I'll take that indictment of their greed back.

Online Fulk

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2020, 03:10:48 pm »
Not that SLDC is any less grasping with their poll tax.

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2020, 03:34:51 pm »
 :lol:

You just can't win, eh?

Offline Fjell

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Offline JeremyG

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2020, 04:29:21 pm »
EVs are the future and both vehicles themselves and the availability of public charging points are improving all the time. In terms of range it does depend on the car, but I can drive from Bristol to Yorkshire at motorway speeds without stopping to charge.

Offline paul

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2020, 04:59:55 pm »
There are still a lot of problems remaining before EVs become widespread.
Leaving aside considerations on the extra electricity generation requirement for all those charging points, there are many locations where there are difficulties with having charging points at all.
The village I live in only has a certain proportion of houses actually located at the side of a road, with the only access to them being via narrow pathways, so cars have to be parked some distance away on other roads.
The main street for example has terraces of various sized houses  fronting straight on to the pavement with no front gardens or other frontage. The chances of guaranteeing being able to park right outside or even near a certain house are slim. And for the "put the charging points in lamposts idea", there are none. All street lights are affixed directly to houses.
I'm not a complete idiot: some parts are missing!

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2020, 05:19:38 pm »
https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/electric/id/id-family/id-buzz

Back to the future.

Hm - hardly a Land Rover is it? I mean, tiny wheels, as far apart as possible (giving what looks like an appalling ramp break over angle). My quest is to try and find an EV (or hybrid) which is small and capable in harsh winter conditions and off the tarmac when necessary (both of which feature often around here in the Dales).

However, what really worries me about that suggested feature is the following words: " Soon the driver will become the passenger ". Once some robot in the sky somewhere decides where we're going, at what speeds and via which route - and which can then be hacked & controlled by some aggressive foreign power, then "1984! really has happened. But that's a totally different subject from electric vehicles' pros and cons, so I'll not go on about it here.

Offline JeremyG

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2020, 07:04:08 pm »
Looking forward to getting my tri-motor Cybertruck, that will be good for caving ☺️

Offline zzzzzzed

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2020, 07:40:36 pm »

Offline PeteHall

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2020, 07:42:18 pm »
I think I alluded to this earlier. Thanks for the link.
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Offline Von Trippenhof

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2020, 09:05:23 am »
The human rights issues around cobalt sourcing are horrendous, however unlikely to be for long. CATL and Svolt (two of the big Chinese battery makers) have both announced their new generation of cells that are entering production now are cobalt free. And they are managing to be cheaper and higher capacity to boot. Tesla is making a fuss about it, but apparently they are supplying to a large European oem too.

To remain a little cynical, and I’m extrapolating a bit from the related semiconductor industry I work in, but I suspect this isn’t driven by the human rights as on the PR releases. Unlike petrochemicals where you have to dig them up where you find them, with sufficient investment, research and incentive alternative chemistry can be found. China has various five year plans to end dependence on other countries for tech. Not needing to bring cobalt over from Africa would fit with that. And China’s rep for human rights isn’t exactly storming.

To continue the human rights-batteries story... To up supply to European OEMs, Svolt are planning to build a factory in the EU, to allow them to take advantage of the better EU tariffs for made in Europe goods. The factories will need to meet western expectations for workers rights.

Before I come across as too evangelical, I think that in all of this, the unsustainable part is that everyone has a private magic metal box that can transport you wherever you want at high speed. However you slice it, that has a cost, either on the wallet of the user today, the environment tomorrow or the life of some poor sod digging up stuff. It’s all about balance and as I think someone said higher up, just swapping pistons for batteries is the least imaginative way of achieving that.

Thing is, I really like swanning off for weekends away.

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2020, 09:21:14 am »
Some interesting words there VT - and food for thought.

In my case, I'm increasingly trying to make use of public transport where possible, minimising the use of the car. In this way I now seem to drive less than 6,000 miles a year where once I'd do 20,000. But the car does need to be there because you can't get off Leck Fell at midnight after a long day out by bus or a train. Any caving project needing a large amount of gear (cave diving springs to mind) is impossible in most cases without personal transport of some sort.

This conversation reminds me of the times when I'd think nothing of riding a 100 cc motorbike, on L plates, from Sheffield to the Dales and back, whilst wearing a pair of side mounted cylinders and a massive rucsack. I bet the police would take a dim view of that nowadays.  :-\

Offline Fjell

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2020, 09:31:38 am »
What is VW’s cunning battery plan? Because they are investing a shed load to produce 1.5 million EV cars a year by 2025, which is about 10% of European total demand for cars on it’s own. This seems to imply more like 30% EV market share by then. Germany seems to have decided diesel won’t save the planet after all.


Offline Robert Scott

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2020, 06:33:38 pm »
Three years ago I visited Cuba, where electric motor bikes are fairly common. The problem is, they are virtually soundless, and they creep up on you (there tends to be not much traffic on Cuban streets and people often walk along the road and get a bike up their arse if they're not careful).
In Cuba, given the dilapidated state of "pavements", it is easier to walk in the road being slightly less dilapidated. And yes the electric "Vespas" are a bit startling. But it's a lovely country to visit - a bit run-down but hey-ho at least only the army have guns.

Offline Robert Scott

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2020, 06:55:05 pm »
I see electric cars as a stop-gap, the future is surely hydrogen fuel cells - witness the tide/wind/hydrogen experiment in the Orkneys. It surprises me that the car manufacturers haven't invested the development of this technology which would work equally for cars, 32-ton artics and buses. And dare I say railway locomotives where overhead lines would be prohibitive.

Offline MarkS

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2020, 10:04:07 pm »
Do hydrogen fuel cells not suffer from a storage issue, rather like electric cars suffer from the issue of battery technology?

Offline hyweldavies

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Re: Electric vehicles (split from Electricity smart meters)
« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2020, 08:32:44 am »
They are quite nippy those electric bikes. Not sure you should be allowed to ride one with no licence or insurance though




 

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