Author Topic: Bca insurance  (Read 1066 times)

Offline cavemanmike

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 628
  • ucet
Bca insurance
« on: October 23, 2020, 07:10:21 pm »
What are people's thought on this idea.
Seeing as we are all doing less caving these days, how about the bca negotiating a reduction on the premium.
I think it would go a long way.
Opinions please

Offline Ian Adams

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1256
  • UCET
    • UCET Caving Club (North Wales)
Re: Bca insurance
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2020, 07:32:36 pm »
Some (most?) Car Insurers refunded part of the premiums we (motorists) paid this year because of the reduced travel during the first "lockdown".

I imagine it was more based on business strategy and marketing (rather thank it just being a nice gesture) but .....

Good idea  ;D

Ian
A door, once opened, may be stepped through in either direction.

Offline PeteHall

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1280
Re: BCA insurance
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2020, 08:37:12 pm »
I think the discount my car insurance providers offered me would equate to about £2 on a £200 policy.

By the same reckoning, that would be an 8p discount (for each member) on an £8 BCA policy. Since the BCA buys the policy, not the members, the BCA might get a reasonable refund (circa £500 perhaps?), but trying top administer the redistribution of this to 6,000 members would be a monumental task, far outweighing the 8p benefit each member would receive. If the BCA kept the refund, not doubt there would be calls of foul play from some members.

Nice idea, but hardly seems worth it...
The distance between stupidity and genius is measured only by success.

Offline Chocolate fireguard

  • obsessive maniac
  • ***
  • Posts: 433
Re: Bca insurance
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2020, 08:38:03 pm »
Good idea.
BCA is desperate for cash, and its officers desperate for something to do to justify their money.



Online mikem

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3969
  • Mendip Caving Group
Re: Bca insurance
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2020, 08:39:14 pm »
& we'd probably just end up paying more next year to make up for it!

Offline PeteHall

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1280
Re: Bca insurance
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2020, 08:51:53 pm »
BCA is desperate for cash
Really? or was that meant as a sarcastic comment?   :doubt:

Quote
The end result was a surplus of £8k compared with £19k in 2018. Cash balances were £16k
higher at year end compared to previously year at £298k. Accruals were at a similar value to
prior year at £36k. Net assets were £262k, compared to £254k prior year.
https://british-caving.org.uk/documents/agm-reports-2020/
The distance between stupidity and genius is measured only by success.

Offline pwhole

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2222
  • TSG, DCA, PDMHS
    • Phil Wolstenholme website
Re: Bca insurance
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2020, 09:06:41 pm »
I spend more annually on chocolate flapjacks before a caving trip than I do on the insurance, and I'm hardly wealthy. Negotiating a discount on something that's already dirt-cheap doesn't seem a good look to me. And given it's to protect others from paying for our mistakes, and indirectly pay for our rescuers, should we need them, I think it's a question of honour as much as anything else. We haven't had any club members asking for a subs or insurance refund, despite their reduced benefits this year, as I suspect everyone knows this is beyond fault, and keeping the organisation going is more important - as long as folks can afford it, of course.

Offline Ian Ball

  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 947
Re: Bca insurance
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2020, 09:30:14 pm »
Although I am not interested in doing then0 work, wouldn't you have to show a quantifiable reduction in the caving carried out under BCA membership compared to when the policy was signed?


Offline Chocolate fireguard

  • obsessive maniac
  • ***
  • Posts: 433
Re: Bca insurance
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2020, 09:34:16 pm »
BCA is desperate for cash
Really? or was that meant as a sarcastic comment?   :doubt:

Quote
The end result was a surplus of £8k compared with £19k in 2018. Cash balances were £16k
higher at year end compared to previously year at £298k. Accruals were at a similar value to
prior year at £36k. Net assets were £262k, compared to £254k prior year.
https://british-caving.org.uk/documents/agm-reports-2020/
Thanks for the info. I hate to admit it, but I do read the accounts.

Please don't ask if I really believe people get paid.

Offline ZombieCake

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1129
Re: Bca insurance
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2020, 09:40:28 pm »
Might be worth letting sleeping dogs lie on insurance.
Might be better getting a BCA discount on the previously mentioned large scale investments in chocolate flapjacks, or donuts (jam variety), or maybe Black Forest Gateau (cherries have known health benefits).

Online Fulk

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4343
Re: Bca insurance
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2020, 10:29:08 pm »
Quote
I think it would go a long way.

A long way to what, exactly? The BCA premium is pretty paltry, anyway, so I don't know what 'a long way' of a low premium would go towards.


Online JoshW

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 509
  • YSS, BCA Youth and Development, BCA Group Rep
Re: Bca insurance
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2020, 10:38:36 pm »
I can only assume this is a troll?

Offline pwhole

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2222
  • TSG, DCA, PDMHS
    • Phil Wolstenholme website
Re: Bca insurance
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2020, 12:59:23 am »
Might be better getting a BCA discount on the previously mentioned large scale investments in chocolate flapjacks, or donuts (jam variety), or maybe Black Forest Gateau (cherries have known health benefits).

I think I'm probably eligible for a grant to cover the flapjack outlay by now. I keep all the receipts ;)

Offline Ian Adams

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1256
  • UCET
    • UCET Caving Club (North Wales)
Re: Bca insurance
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2020, 08:21:50 am »
Quote
I think it would go a long way.

A long way to what, exactly? The BCA premium is pretty paltry, anyway, so I don't know what 'a long way' of a low premium would go towards.


I hope the OP doesn’t mind me jumping in …

To understand the thread (and to answer that question) you need a little bit of background.

UCET (the club the OP and myself are members of) has only a modest membership and far less available funds than the BCA.

Club Subscriptions are now due (probably the same for most clubs) and we were discussing what we could do to help our members since they have not been able to “go caving” much over the last year and it doesn’t seem likely (here in Wales anyway) that caving will be permitted for some time to come.

We therefore feel that the club’s request for caving subs will be met with apathy and we believe our modest membership will reduce. This position may well be mirrored within many other caving clubs across the UK.

So, in an effort to give something back to our members (and help protect our numbers) we are considering foregoing the club subscriptions this year.

However, the BCA insurance still needs addressing and (as things stand) we may still have to ask members for at least that amount. There was a moot that the club might pay the insurance FOR the members (which would secure 100% of the numbers) but this would cost a small fortune. Even though the insurance is only £17 (a paltry amount as suggested by someone else) it becomes a much bigger number when it is multiplied by the number of members of the (your) club.

The OP’s question really centres on, “What can the BCA do to help us retain our membership” (for all UK clubs) specifically with regards to “costs” for a sport that has been plagued with restrictions.

I hope that offers some clarity, it was an honestly well-intentioned question.

Ian
A door, once opened, may be stepped through in either direction.

Online Fulk

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4343
Re: Bca insurance
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2020, 09:43:56 am »
Thanks for that clarification, Ian.

Offline Fjell

  • stalker
  • ***
  • Posts: 262
Re: Bca insurance
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2020, 09:45:32 am »
I decided to start paying the insurance individually again because of the more recent CNCC access agreements. I believe the insurance plays a part in that, so if you want to benefit from them then I felt you should make some gesture.

The chance of me being involved something needing the insurance is so small as to be ignored, that isn’t the point.

Feel free to disagree.

Offline nearlywhite

  • obsessive maniac
  • ***
  • Posts: 359
Re: Bca insurance
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2020, 10:27:12 am »
I decided to start paying the insurance individually again because of the more recent CNCC access agreements. I believe the insurance plays a part in that, so if you want to benefit from them then I felt you should make some gesture.

The chance of me being involved something needing the insurance is so small as to be ignored, that isn’t the point.

Feel free to disagree.

The membership isn't just insurance, it also funds things like the CNCC or the recent case regarding CRoW... Off the top of my head it's 50/50 split, insurance vs everything else.

As one of those officers justifying their exorbitant spend of £0 this year.

Online aricooperdavis

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 520
  • Cornwall to Cumbria
    • Cooper-Davis.net
Re: Bca insurance
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2020, 11:06:09 am »
Please don't ask if I really believe people get paid.

Who gets paid? BCA officers? Not as far as I'm aware...

Offline badger

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 709
  • WSCC. WCC
Re: Bca insurance
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2020, 12:55:21 pm »
 there are a couple of BCA employee's, no idea on how many, how many hours or the rate of pay, I am sure if anyone so wishes they could go through BCA accounts and find some or all of the relevent figures

Online mikem

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3969
  • Mendip Caving Group
Re: Bca insurance
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2020, 01:03:31 pm »
Plus not all the insurance is for public liability of individuals, I believe there is also landowner indemnity, business cover for the officers & presumably something towards the caving library. I assume club hut insurance is separately covered by their fees.

Looking at last year's figures, the BCA could afford to drop £10,000, but that's still only £1.50 per person. Perhaps fees could be reduced on application, but would involve a lot of someone's time...

BTW, I know that the BMC lost c.5000 members during lockdown (but still had 80,000 left).
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 01:20:34 pm by mikem »

Offline Chocolate fireguard

  • obsessive maniac
  • ***
  • Posts: 433
Re: Bca insurance
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2020, 02:21:55 pm »
Please don't ask if I really believe people get paid.

Who gets paid? BCA officers? Not as far as I'm aware...

I like to keep posts as short as possible, but it looks like I'm going to have to start spelling out exactly what I mean in future.

Offline Jenny P

  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 840
Re: Bca insurance
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2020, 02:41:54 pm »
BCA is still largely run by volunteers but don't forget that it also employs some people to deal with the day to day running of the membership system and other background office tasks which cannot rely on volunteers.  The insurance covers equipment owned by BCA as well as other items plus the public liability and landowner indemnity which benefits cavers by allowing access which might otherwise not be available generally.

BCRA owns the British Caving Library and BCA funds it so that it can be made available for the use of all cavers and people who need access to records involving caving, whether or not they are British, members of BCA or whatever.  This includes paying the rent on the accommodation the Library occupies and the salaries of two people to work in the Library on one day a week.  (This is in addition to a number of volunteers who take on specific tasks for the Library.) 

BCA funds expenses involved in placing of bolts and also conservation and access expenses incurred by the regions on behalf of all cavers.  So quite a lot of the expenditure which is covered by BCA actually benefits all cavers, wherever they are based and even whether they are BCA members themselves.

BCA doesn't have anything like the membership of BMC to draw on so doesn't have the luxury of having paid officers or the full-time employees needed to service a large membership.  With a smaller membership overall I guess it's fingers crossed that cavers are willing to stay engaged in the long term, even when things are currently so grim.


Offline Badlad

  • Administrator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1984
Re: Bca insurance
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2020, 03:45:57 pm »
My recollection is that the insurance package costs BCA around 40K a year.  Total membership subscriptions add up to around 100K.  I think there are four part time employees getting paid for barely a day a week, but that will add up.  12K for the library, 6K to GPF, bolts, training subsidies and all regional admin, C&A costs which are now adding up to a significant amount.  For example CSCC have 7.5K approved for C&A funding this year alone, DCA 3K plus CNCC similar and up to 60K to fund the JR on the Welsh Government's decision to exclude caving from the scope of its Access Reform Advisory Group work on legislative reform.  In the last decade or two there has always been a yearly surplus which is why the banked amount reached 300K.  That is all changing and there is a will to spend it down on benefiting the members etc.  It may well be that the insurance manager will be able to get a discount for this year but I doubt it would be enough to make much difference to individual club members.  Hopefully though BCA will be thinking of ways to help clubs who will be experiencing difficult times over the next few years as it is inevitable that memberships will drop until caving gets back to normal.

Offline Bob Mehew

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1380
  • breaking knots is fun
Re: Bca insurance
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2020, 05:30:55 pm »
From the Insurance Manager's report to the 2020 AGM "All past low claims rebates have been received. 2019 low claims rebate at £1400 has been received already in 2020 and will reduce this year’s premium payable."  I presume there will be a rebate for 2020, assuming there are no claims made.  It also sounds as if the rebate is already factored into the subscription costs.

 

Main Menu

Forum Home Help Search