Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 8849 times)

Online Mrs Trellis

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Brexit
« on: December 22, 2020, 02:59:39 pm »

Global Moderator Comment New Topic split from "The Eyam Spirit" https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=27329.0

Re Brexit - we have to do it because it was put to a free vote and "won".

The timing is bad because remainiacs in both Houses and their allies in the Civil Service adopted the Trumpian policy of refusing to accept the democratic mandate and tried to subvert it in every way. Those who repeatedly voted against May's proposals have brought about the current sad state of affairs and have only themselves to blame.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2020, 07:45:39 pm by paul »
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Offline aardgoose

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2020, 03:04:37 pm »
An interesting reimagining of recent history

Quote
Those who repeatedly voted against May's proposals have brought about the current sad state of affairs and have only themselves to blame

Those voting against May's 'deal' included most of the current cabinet and the membership of the ERG.

Offline tony from suffolk

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2020, 04:03:11 pm »
An interesting reimagining of recent history

Quote
Those who repeatedly voted against May's proposals have brought about the current sad state of affairs and have only themselves to blame

Those voting against May's 'deal' included most of the current cabinet and the membership of the ERG.
Indeed. And of course, a no-deal Brexit is what many of them were after in the first place,  and unlike us poor ordinary suckers, stand to benefit financially from their overseas investments in that event.
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Online Mrs Trellis

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2020, 04:17:56 pm »
The number of remainiac MP's who voted against May vastly outnumbered the Brexiteers. It was transparently obvious that the remainiacs used any tool available to stop the mandate to leave the EU.
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Online PeteHall

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2020, 04:31:56 pm »
...remainiacs in both Houses and their allies in the Civil Service adopted the Trumpian policy of refusing to accept the democratic mandate...

An obvious comparison and one that I am surprised I have not heard previously, though I doubt either will enjoy being compared to the other! Combine this with the increasing trend of no-platforming anyone who disagrees with those who shout loudest and you wonder if democracy has had its time in the west...
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Offline aardgoose

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2020, 04:49:28 pm »
Quote
The number of remainiac MP's who voted against May vastly outnumbered the Brexiteers. It was transparently obvious that the remainiacs used any tool available to stop the mandate to leave the EU.

Ignoring the infantile name calling,  history is still being rewritten.  In the final vote for May's deal would have passed if the ERG members and DUP who can hardly be accused of supporting the EU, had voted for it. Leave supporters voting against May's deal led to this situation.

And if the current government which can hardly be accused of supporting remain had any sense of responsibility for the UK, it could have extended the transition period earlier this year, but refused to, despite many warnings that winter would see a second wave. 

Blaming the people who advised against an action for the problems caused by that action seems to be a very popular at the moment. Strangely those people who promote "personal responsibility".

Online Mrs Trellis

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2020, 04:55:33 pm »
The current govt. was elected with a large majority on the basis of "get Brexit done". The voters were obviously totally fed up with the actions of the remainiacs who showed the same respect for democracy that Trump and his supporters did and still do.
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Offline tony from suffolk

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2020, 05:02:00 pm »
the Brexit supporters blatantly lied to the electorate, stirred up xenophobia, and acted illegally in obtaining their Brexit objective, so I hardly think us who appreciated what a disaster this would create can be compared to Trump's current insanity.
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Offline aardgoose

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2020, 05:09:34 pm »
Quote
The current govt. was elected with a large majority on the basis of "get Brexit done". The voters were obviously totally fed up with the actions of the remainiacs who showed the same respect for democracy that Trump and his supporters did and still do.

Still the childish insults to avoid admitting that the current problems can be laid at the feet of the current government.

And appealing to 'The Voters' ignores the fact that the majority of the UK population now believes it was a mistake to leave the EU. I expect the 'Will of the People' to be invoked next.

Online Fjell

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2020, 05:16:20 pm »
I don’t think it was really a vote on the EU, but on “London” and life in general. The UK has it’s own problems to sort out. Maybe it is time to focus on that. We have to spend trillions on rebuilding energy and transport for starters.

If you think we have issues, you should try France. Figaro today said that a quarter of those in the Ille de France were the victims of assault or crime last year. That’s millions of people. One reason a lot of French expats dismiss Paris as a major financial centre is because they say it is unliveable. And that’s before you get people started on the Énarque. “Emily in Paris” is not reality.

Offline Alex

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2020, 05:29:26 pm »
Having once driven near Paris, I can agree with that. It looked like Detroit after the car industry moved out. Did not seem to be a good place. Still there are plenty of other place the new centre of Europe can go, now we have given it up (remind me why we did that by the way?) Something to do with sovereignty (which we had already) and "dirty" foreigners or something like that.

Just what the government wants though, a population divided is a population controlled, race to the bottom, with a dismal economy as the excuse.
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Online Duck ditch

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2020, 06:06:15 pm »
Good grief.  I’ve been called a remoaner, project fear,remainiac and a Union Jack hater.  Now I’m told I follow the politics of trump and this mess is my fault.
Staggering.
We have left one of the most powerful union of countries in the world to go alone.  No country goes alone. There trading blocks all over the world, we chose to leave one of the best.
4 years and 3 Tory leaders and no deal is pathetic.  Raab didn’t even know Dover was important.
As for the Eyam Spirit.  If 10% of the population can’t be bothered then it’s herd immunity.  Who’s says that works?

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2020, 06:33:17 pm »
“A witch, a witch!”
“How do we know she’s a witch?”
“She looks like one” ;)

Good grief.  I’ve been called a remoaner, project fear,remainiac and a Union Jack hater.  Now I’m told I follow the politics of trump and this mess is my fault.
Staggering.

Online Fjell

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2020, 06:45:16 pm »
Good grief.  I’ve been called a remoaner, project fear,remainiac and a Union Jack hater.  Now I’m told I follow the politics of trump and this mess is my fault.
Staggering.
We have left one of the most powerful union of countries in the world to go alone.  No country goes alone. There trading blocks all over the world, we chose to leave one of the best.
4 years and 3 Tory leaders and no deal is pathetic.  Raab didn’t even know Dover was important.
As for the Eyam Spirit.  If 10% of the population can’t be bothered then it’s herd immunity.  Who’s says that works?

The sniffy behaviour in Europe is because we are not remotely leaving. If we were being towed off into the sunset, then that would be what it is. But we are not, we are plonked in NW Europe, and there is serious angst that we are going to get a free ride. And they are probably right. We already got one from playing off Sterling against the Euro, we are shielded from a lot of immigration pressure and we now cease to directly subsidise southern and eastern Europe.

Offline 2xw

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2020, 07:14:19 pm »
a Union Jack hater

To be fair, there are better flags. Personally I prefer the Northumbrian one.

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2020, 08:02:31 pm »
There trading blocks all over the world, we chose to leave one of the best.

Eh? You are incorrect on two counts:
1. It is not a trading block, it is a pathway to a United States of Europe. If they stopped at a trading bloc, that would be fine. But the USE is never going to work! If Scotland and Wales are both moving towards independence, after hundreds of years union, I don't see how we are going to jump into bed with Greece.
2. It is the most bureaucratic burdensome cancer of an organisation that is bleeding the economies dry. It needs scaling back, and a good kick in the balls like Brexit is what it needs. If you were a one-man band trying to bring a product to market, you would understand what a disincentive to business the EU is.

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Offline Robert Scott

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2020, 08:34:02 pm »
Am I the only one who finds that pejorative terms like "remainiac" diminishes any argument or discussion  that contains them?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2020, 08:51:11 pm by Robert Scott »

Online ChrisJC

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2020, 08:58:16 pm »
Am I the only one who finds that pejorative terms like "remainiac" diminishes any argument or discussion  that contains them?

Unfortunately both viewpoints diminish the argument with pejoratives. I suspect being of the 'leave' persuasion opens one up to more opprobrium / accusations of all sorts of nonsense than 'remain'

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Offline al

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2020, 08:59:10 pm »
Am I the only one who finds that pejorative terms like "remainiac" diminishes any argument or discussion  that contains them?
No your not, but the insults are probably the result of frustration at not having a convincing argument - and, of course, the very real fear that, when all the problems become realities, this government will, of course, blame the very people who voted for Brexit in the first place.
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Online RobinGriffiths

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2020, 09:01:10 pm »
Prominent Brexit backer, Tory funder and Boris' chum Peter Cruddas to be made a Lord - in defiance of advice by the Lord's Appointment Commission. So maybe Brexit does have it's benefits?


Offline martinb

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2020, 09:39:23 pm »
Just read this thread with interest, especially the comments regarding Paris above.

After the fraudulent referendum, I turned to my good lady and said that we had better get our act together before Brexit happened.

We had always had intentions of retiring to France, specifically Normandie, when we turned 60. However, Brexit moved the timescale forward somewhat.
We looked at many houses, and finally made the move in Feb 2018. It has been the best thing we have ever done.
We run a gite, I have a gardening business and we breed the occaisional litter of dachshund puppies.

We are not well off, although we have saving from the UK we have bought over here, but, overall, we are happy.

France is not as cheap as it used to be, but the laid back way of life, the vast country of different facets, and a certain lack of borders between countries are benefits.

When I look at the news and see the utter shitshow that the UK Government are making of both Brexit and Covid, I honestly wonder what the fuck people were thinking when they voted in the blond bullshitter.

In 2015, Cameron said, Vote Tory or get chaos with Ed Milliband.

Well, I think I would have preferred chaos with Ed Milliband.

France isn't perfect, no country is. But when I go to Paris - 3 times this year and we've also been to Strasbourg and Perpignan this year, you go through poor places, but you also meet people who are genuine and friendly.

What France doesn't have are the landed gentry like Jacob Rees-Smug et al, who are only out to rip off Joe Public and bomb the economy and pound to make a quick buck.

Remember that France got rid of its monarchy a few centuries ago by inventive means.

The UK government by its definition is supposed to serve the people and do what is right for the country, this version of the Conservatives is turning the UK into a banana republic, awarding dodgy contracts to mates and supporters, promoting undeserving brexit supporters to the HoL, tanking the econmy and putting peoples health and wellbeing on the line.

What do ordinary people do? Feck all.

In France, there would be hundreds and thousands of protesters on the streets, riots etc. But the ordinary British mana and woman won't lift a finger until it directly affects them, when they can't get their pies, or Watneys red barrel.

Woe betide the Uk if there is no-deal, if Johnson makes a stand about the fishing (0.02% of UK GDP).
The moment the UK Navy stop a french fishing boat, ports will be blocked, trains stopped and ATC will stop planes, it'll make the last couple of days on Plague Island seem like a picnic.

Meanwhile, Happy Christmas, Joyeux Noel from Normandie, France!

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2020, 10:10:24 pm »
Brits have always just done their own thing, whatever everyone else is doing - whether that be other governments or our own...

Online Fulk

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2020, 10:39:39 pm »
Well, I voted ‘remain’ because I thought that to leave the EU would be a disaster . . . but not in my worst nightmares did I consider that it would turn out to be such a fucked-up abysmal unmitigated disaster as it’s shaping up to be under the blond buffoon and the buffoonettes.

Online Fjell

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2020, 11:02:05 pm »
I realise the Guardian and others swim in a sea of misery, but it really isn’t reality. The virus is reality and a pretty good job has been done in various parts of the world to crash develop a vaccine in the nick of time, including in the UK. The Oxford vaccine will likely be the bedrock of the global response and the UK is giving it away for free. Huge numbers of lives will be saved.

People are drowning with their kids in the channel trying to get to England from France, and not the other way at all. A sense of perspective is required as to how terrible peoples lives are in England. It’s grotesque to assert it and it annoys me having lived and worked in many places where shit happens. We are extremely privileged in the main.


Offline tony from suffolk

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2020, 05:34:22 am »
I do agree we've won the jackpot in the great lottery of life by being born in the UK, so all the more reason to rail against the terrible, disgraceful way it's being destroyed by the rich and powerful in their grovelling rush to line their own pockets.

It's only in the dominant Tory-controlled media that you get told how we're approaching the sunny uplands, a message that gets sucked up by those who can't be bothered to stretch their intellects to consider other news sources.

The Conservatives like to promote themselves as the party for business, but they're no such thing - they're the party of rich investors and the privileged. I do wonder how anyone can believe that the likes of Rees- Mogg, Johnson and the rest of their Eton crew can have the interests of us ordinary folk at heart, or any degree of empathy.
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