Brexit

[pwhole]

One of my friends in France has been training for the last two years to be a chef, with a view to moving back to the UK to work. Now she's qualified and already has a job there, she's thinking that it may not be worthwhile coming over here any longer. Great - I was hoping to work with her myself on other projects. But that in a microcosm is what's going on. All that freedom to travel and work evaporating overnight. After over four years of listening to Brexit promotions, not one has ever convinced me of its value, ever. That's a lot of argument, and I'm not stupid. And I'm not a remainiac either, whatever that means. I don't listen to the westminster bubble, I use common sense.

 

[Brains]

Something about turkeys and christmas? Who would want to agree with Churchill that a united Europe is a desirable thing?

 

[Pitlamp]

Remember, almost half the country didn't want the disaster which is about to unfold. What's been happening at Dover this week gives a fair indication of the sort of things we have to look forward to soon. Unless those involved finally get their backsides into gear and sort out the deal we were promised.

Many people are still very unhappy that the close referendum outcome was the result of lies. Remember the Boris Bus?

And another thing; in one breath Boris says he's concerned about carbon dioxide emissions. In another breath he orders a huge diesel-guzzling vehicle to do thousands of unnecessary miles. Fine example to the people (not).

I noticed on't interweb the other day a comment which  defined a "Remainer" as someone who can see beyond the end of their nose. Given the threat from slightly further east and the fact that there's never been a more important time for us Europeans to be united, it struck me as rather appropriate.

Anyway, never mind that for now; I hope all forum readers have a very happy Christmas.

 

[Mrs Trellis]

It's evidently possible to train as a chef in the UK which of course benefits the UK econonomy. One of the many reasons voters in the ex Labour voting areas named the "red wall" voted for both Brexit and the Tories in some numbers is the principle of free movement and the arrival of unwanted immigrants with a different language and culture.

The Remain campaign was both smug and condescending - typically North London based. 

If there is an attempt to rejoin I hope they will have a referendum again, unlike before we joined.

As for Churchill's idea - the voters didn't like that either and got rid of him before the war was over.

 

[ChrisJC]

Well Cameron got us an exemption from it so if you object to that then you've got no worries. Personally I don't have a problem with it. But then I like Star Trek with its Federation.

That is obviously a nonsense. If you are on a boat that is going to a particular destination, you can lie about it, but it's still going there. If you don't want to go there, you have to get off the boat.

We have got off.

Chris.

 

[ChrisJC]

Politically, outside we have NO voice. Inside we have one.

My arse did we have one! Cameron tried for his red lines, which were summarily rejected! They called our bluff (ably demonstrating that a nation is too small to have any say in the EU), they lost.

Chris.

 

[aardgoose]

Ah "remainiacs", the "London bubble",  what childish and inaccurate insult can you use next to hide your absence of a case. How about "liberal elite". Or how about engaging with the facts.

Brexit was a project of the "elite", look at the people in power, public school, wealthy families, not a single one of them represent the majority of the country.  And comparing people to Trump and his supporters where the resemblance is rather the other way around. Brexit is a Trumpian project.

Did you not note that the only world leaders that welcomed brexit were people like Trump and Putin. And in the EU, supported by the likes of Marine Le Pen. and Golden Dawn (frequently labelled as neo-nazi - apologies to Mr Godwin). Does it not worry you at all that Brexit was supported and praised by enemies of the UK and of democracy in general? 

Indeed our PM and others have had multiple meetings with one S Bannon, a key trump ally.

Brexit has reduced the UK to an international joke. The current government is following Trump's example, by lying in industrial quantities, attacking the courts, reducing parliamentary oversight, rewarding party donors and overriding any checks intended to prevent corruption.  The UK's democracy is dying, killed by 'taking back control'.  Indeed we have lost control. Lost control of our own country and lost international influence.

A former editor of the Sun has called for war against France today. The current Home Secretary suggested starving the Irish as a negotiating tactic, and this week endangered an ongoing man-slaughter trial. The Attorney General approved legislation that would have broken international law if enacted, and recently suggested that judges should ignore sentencing guidelines created by parliament. The Prime Minister conspired to have a journalist assaulted. Are these people who's values you share?  Because these are the people who you have put in control. Populists of the worst sort. I am ashamed of this country.

 

[Brains]

Politically, outside we have NO voice. Inside we have one.

My arse did we have one! Cameron tried for his red lines, which were summarily rejected! They called our bluff (ably demonstrating that a nation is too small to have any say in the EU), they lost.

Chris.

Yes we did, via our democratically elected MEPs and other elected representatives at various summits. Being one voice of many means a compromise has to be made and agreements found. The UK trying to bully the EU was a ridiculous and petulant standpoint. The EU is Democratic for all its members, not just the gammon in the UK...

 

[Andy Farrant]

The whole Brexit charade is so sad, especially as the whole argument was based on so many false premises, crass slogans and outright lies, just so some right wing politicians can say they reclaimed 'sovereignty'.  For what? I now have less freedom and my kids fewer opportunities, but yay, I have a blue passport and we can catch our 'own' fish... What is 'sovereignty' anyway in this era of globalisation and interlinked networks? In my experience it is always better to work collaboratively than stand alone; same goes for nation states. And by working to a set of common standards, we all benefit. Getting off the boat doesn't help us in the slightest. Most people now think Brexit was a bad idea, and sadly they are being proved right.

 

[Brains]

Politically, outside we have NO voice. Inside we have one.

My arse did we have one! Cameron tried for his red lines, which were summarily rejected! They called our bluff (ably demonstrating that a nation is too small to have any say in the EU), they lost.

Chris.

 

[Ed]

Does anyone think that if Remain had won we'd still be discussing Brexit? The truth is that Remain ignored the country at large and believed what the Westminster bubble told them. Anyway you have to credit the remainiacs - they may last longer than Trump and his supporters , one or two of whom have accepted he lost however grudgingly.

Probably, as a group of wealth anti -EU folk have been moaning and bitching for 40 years since the previous referendum.
  Then they saw the moves to shut down tax dodging, money laundering about to be brought in by the EU and they finally  flipped out

 

[Duck ditch]

Oh no.  I?m not clicking on anymore links on this forum.
I?ve done it twice already.  The first time I had to reset my history etc because I got bombarded with conspiracy theories on the origins of coronavirus and its manipulations by bill gates.  The second time I got bombarded by sites inviting me on pheasants shoots by people who said pheasant shooting is good for the environment.  By researchers equivalent to benson and hedges saying smoking doesn?t cause cancer or Exxon saying there is no such thing as global warming.
I?m not doing it again  .  I shall have to wait for the United States of Europe. Does it include Turkey joining the eu too.

 

[droid]

Interesting that the Brexit argument can now be simplified to 'I'm right, you're wrong,, f**k off!'

If you have a decent pension, your own house and a bit in the bank, these times are quite interesting. For anyone else they must be pretty scary.

 

[Pitlamp]

This (which appeared an hour ago) makes for interesting reading:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-55416939

If Brexit turns out to be as awful as many people believe it will be, the idea of rejoining probably will surface.

If Johnson's lot doesn't come up with a deal, a great many people are going to feel very badly let down.

 

[Fjell]

A deal will likely be announced today. There will be some screaming about it, then we can chunter on with modifying it for the next 50 odd years.

It is going to be swings and roundabouts, and it will take a decade at least to tell the difference. Given our geographical position we will always get benefit from the proximity of the EU. But (as with the Euro) some benefits from being able to play off it.

As long as we keep buying shiny Audis I imagine all will be happy.

 

[Ian Ball]

Conservatives, here to help those who can help themselves.

 

[RobinGriffiths]

Looks like the highways of Kent may not end up being lined with bottles of 'truckers cider' after all. Be interesting to see how the Tory nutjobs like Mark Francois (oh the irony of the surname) welcome the deal.

 

[al]

I strongly suspect that this has been played out right up to the wire, with the threat of "no deal" looming, so that most people will be relieved to get any deal whatsoever.

Let's hope that enough of us see through this pantomime and realise that it is high time the UK adopted the kind of democracy that almost every other country on the planet uses, based upon PR. Then all our votes might count, and maybe,just maybe, our politicians will take their jobs seriously and work together.

 

[Fjell]

I strongly suspect that this has been played out right up to the wire, with the threat of "no deal" looming, so that most people will be relieved to get any deal whatsoever.

Let's hope that enough of us see through this pantomime and realise that it is high time the UK adopted the kind of democracy that almost every other country on the planet uses, based upon PR. Then all our votes might count, and maybe,just maybe, our politicians will take their jobs seriously and work together.

We had a coalition from 2010 to 2015, and vast numbers of people dedicated themselves to trying to make it fail. They succeeded to the point of making it pretty much impossible any time in the foreseeable future. Having a poison pill like the SNP who are disinterested in Uk-wide issues pretty much seals the deal.

There are a number of European countries who struggle badly with PR. And in some countries has given oxygen to some quite extreme groups who then build on it. You can?t set significant thresholds because in the UK that could leave nationalists with zero seats (even if you thought that was a good outcome). I am happy that UKIP never got the 30-50 seats they would have under PR, meanie that I am. And I also am really quite sniffy about a party list system. And it would be the end of independents, of which there are a few, particularly in Wales.

 

[al]

We had a coalition from 2010 to 2015, and vast numbers of people dedicated themselves to trying to make it fail.

The 2010 coalition would have been more effective if the liberals had had the guts to either stick to their principles or walk away. As it was it was more a conservative government propped up by libs - hardly a good example of politicians working together. And the PR referendum offered by Cameron was based on the alternative vote system, a system little used elsewhere and very unpopular with either the libs or the tories - i.e. a referendum designed to fail, which it did.

Thought out correctly, PR should give voters more incentive to use their votes, meaning more voters and thus more democratic - even if it does let in MPs for parties you might not like. FPTP is way down on anybody's scale of democratic frameworks - but it's very reassuring for minority parties who have spent many years re-working the constituancy boundaries to their own advantage.