Brexit

[mikem]

We may complain about how much MPs get paid, but this is what happens when it's not competitive with leading CEOs - only those rich enough not to care will take up top Tory places...

[Duck ditch]

Lol it is a pathway to a United States of Europe.   Sounds like project fear.

[oldfart]

The trouble with Europe Is that the beer is shite. Apart from Belgium, Germany, Checho....

[Fjell]

I do agree we've won the jackpot in the great lottery of life by being born in the UK, so all the more reason to rail against the terrible, disgraceful way it's being destroyed by the rich and powerful in their grovelling rush to line their own pockets.

It's only in the dominant Tory-controlled media that you get told how we're approaching the sunny uplands, a message that gets sucked up by those who can't be bothered to stretch their intellects to consider other news sources.

The Conservatives like to promote themselves as the party for business, but they're no such thing - they're the party of rich investors and the privileged. I do wonder how anyone can believe that the likes of Rees- Mogg, Johnson and the rest of their Eton crew can have the interests of us ordinary folk at heart, or any degree of empathy.

If a Labour government had done what has been done in the last year or two they would have been labelled as reckless loony Trots. The government has the worlds fleet of Chinooks and is shovelling crisp notes out of the back doors onto the population. And it was doing this before the virus came to be honest. Boris is not a hair shirt kind of guy. We are up to nearly a trillion in QE. My cousin at the BoE wrote the theory on QE and I discern significant shiftiness when you mention “printing money”.

Ao yes, this government may well be storing up trouble, but in a whole new way that involves jam now rather than later.

[ChrisJC]

Lol it is a pathway to a United States of Europe.   Sounds like project fear.

Is this project fear?
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7230/

Or just some inconvenient truth?

Chris.

[crickleymal]

Lol it is a pathway to a United States of Europe.   Sounds like project fear.

Is this project fear?
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7230/

Or just some inconvenient truth?

Chris.

Well Cameron got us an exemption from it so if you object to that then you've got no worries. Personally I don't have a problem with it. But then I like Star Trek with its Federation.

[Fjell]

I voted Remain because I have always believed in the Pitt maxim that we need to be in Europe in order to ruin it as a concept. There is a reason we are la perfide Albion. It’s all true.

So at the moment there is complete confusion in France as to whether Brexit is an act of madness or an insanely Machiavellian plot to undermine France’s manifest destiny.

Hence all this “level playing field” BS. It’s driven by enormous suspicion as to what the cunning plan really is. I tend to the Great Cock Up Theory myself, but such things have a habit of generating unintended consequences.

[Ed]

a Union Jack hater

To be fair, there are better flags. Personally I prefer the Northumbrian one.

Been saying the same for years --- about time to bring back the Old Country......

[Mrs Trellis]

I think the last two attempts at a united Europe led by Germany turned out badly for the continent.

[aricooperdavis]

I think the last two attempts at a united Europe led by Germany turned out badly for the continent.

Reductio ad Hitlerum?

[Mark Wright]

2. It is the most bureaucratic burdensome cancer of an organisation that is bleeding the economies dry. It needs scaling back, and a good kick in the balls like Brexit is what it needs. If you were a one-man band trying to bring a product to market, you would understand what a disincentive to business the EU is.

Chris.

I don’t recognise any of the above.

Over the past 10 years I’ve developed a ‘one-man band’ business, selling goods and services almost exclusively on the EU mainland and have found the bureaucracy to be pretty much non existent. The only paperwork I have to fill in is an EU Sales list every 3 months. It takes about 2 minutes. It’s well worth the small amount of effort as it saves me having to pay 20% Vat on my EU imports. Having to pay it in January could easily cripple many small company cash flows who won’t be able to reclaim it for at least 3 months.

I also export some goods and services outside of the EU. Now that is a ‘bureaucratic burdensome cancer’ that is a real disincentive to doing business with the rest of the world, particularly on WTO terms. It will also likely put the price of our caving gear up by about 10%, and that’s before the £ probably crashes by 10% in 8 days time.

Maybe your negative experience of the bureaucracy of doing business as a member of the EU was trying to bring the wrong product to market?

Being fully out of the Brexit transition period without a free trade deal will have only negative effects on my business which won’t be realised by the treasury until December 21 when no Corporation Tax will be due. For businesses who have made significant losses over the past year. The treasury will also likely be significantly hit until at least the end of 2023.

Mark

[pwhole]

Well Cameron got us an exemption from it so if you object to that then you've got no worries. Personally I don't have a problem with it. But then I like Star Trek with its Federation.

Me too. It's got to be better than Vulgaria and it's bloody 'sovereignty'. Though be be fair, most seem to be in uniform in the Federation. Though to be fair again, most are pretty buff - in the future at least.

Maybe that's the problem...? 

Also, with reference to Mark's post above - what happens with CE marks after Brexit? Will PPE require a BS kite-mark?

[Brains]

We have no choice over geography.
Politically, outside we have NO voice. Inside we have one.
Sovereignty was always a myth to rally the gullible - we had it already, it never went away.
Wanting to sell sub standard sweat shop goods into a bloc that puts workers rights, citizens rights, high on the agenda is not an option. Quality costs, hence the level playing field trope.
The USE? Sounds like a far right skeleton being jangled in the closet, whats next, Turkey to join the EU? £350m for the NHS?
The ADVISORY referendum was one by cheating, and at judicial review it was stated that had it been binding, it would need to be set aside.
Oven ready deal, considerable upside, sunlit uplands? Bollocks from the corrupt paying BILLIONS to their mates on bad deals and setting up disaster capitalists to mint a fortune. Need some money laundering at a low cost? Use London!
Utter shit show, rescind it at once / rejoin ASAP

[Mrs Trellis]

Does anyone think that if Remain had won we'd still be discussing Brexit? The truth is that Remain ignored the country at large and believed what the Westminster bubble told them. Anyway you have to credit the remainiacs - they may last longer than Trump and his supporters , one or two of whom have accepted he lost however grudgingly.

[Fjell]

We will never rejoin, the hurdles are huge. The first one will be anyone believing we won’t do it it again, and that means the Tories promising not to do it again, whether they are in power or not at the time. Good luck with that.

We will make out like the Swiss, because is there any alternative?. Who knows where that ends up.

[pwhole]

One of my friends in France has been training for the last two years to be a chef, with a view to moving back to the UK to work. Now she's qualified and already has a job there, she's thinking that it may not be worthwhile coming over here any longer. Great - I was hoping to work with her myself on other projects. But that in a microcosm is what's going on. All that freedom to travel and work evaporating overnight. After over four years of listening to Brexit promotions, not one has ever convinced me of its value, ever. That's a lot of argument, and I'm not stupid. And I'm not a remainiac either, whatever that means. I don't listen to the westminster bubble, I use common sense.

[Brains]

Something about turkeys and christmas? Who would want to agree with Churchill that a united Europe is a desirable thing?

[Pitlamp]

Remember, almost half the country didn't want the disaster which is about to unfold. What's been happening at Dover this week gives a fair indication of the sort of things we have to look forward to soon. Unless those involved finally get their backsides into gear and sort out the deal we were promised.

Many people are still very unhappy that the close referendum outcome was the result of lies. Remember the Boris Bus?

And another thing; in one breath Boris says he's concerned about carbon dioxide emissions. In another breath he orders a huge diesel-guzzling vehicle to do thousands of unnecessary miles. Fine example to the people (not).

I noticed on't interweb the other day a comment which  defined a "Remainer" as someone who can see beyond the end of their nose. Given the threat from slightly further east and the fact that there's never been a more important time for us Europeans to be united, it struck me as rather appropriate.

Anyway, never mind that for now; I hope all forum readers have a very happy Christmas.

[Mrs Trellis]

It's evidently possible to train as a chef in the UK which of course benefits the UK econonomy. One of the many reasons voters in the ex Labour voting areas named the "red wall" voted for both Brexit and the Tories in some numbers is the principle of free movement and the arrival of unwanted immigrants with a different language and culture.

The Remain campaign was both smug and condescending - typically North London based. 

If there is an attempt to rejoin I hope they will have a referendum again, unlike before we joined.

As for Churchill's idea - the voters didn't like that either and got rid of him before the war was over.

[ChrisJC]

Well Cameron got us an exemption from it so if you object to that then you've got no worries. Personally I don't have a problem with it. But then I like Star Trek with its Federation.

That is obviously a nonsense. If you are on a boat that is going to a particular destination, you can lie about it, but it's still going there. If you don't want to go there, you have to get off the boat.

We have got off.

Chris.

[ChrisJC]

Politically, outside we have NO voice. Inside we have one.

My arse did we have one! Cameron tried for his red lines, which were summarily rejected! They called our bluff (ably demonstrating that a nation is too small to have any say in the EU), they lost.

Chris.

[aardgoose]

Ah "remainiacs", the "London bubble",  what childish and inaccurate insult can you use next to hide your absence of a case. How about "liberal elite". Or how about engaging with the facts.

Brexit was a project of the "elite", look at the people in power, public school, wealthy families, not a single one of them represent the majority of the country.  And comparing people to Trump and his supporters where the resemblance is rather the other way around. Brexit is a Trumpian project.

Did you not note that the only world leaders that welcomed brexit were people like Trump and Putin. And in the EU, supported by the likes of Marine Le Pen. and Golden Dawn (frequently labelled as neo-nazi - apologies to Mr Godwin). Does it not worry you at all that Brexit was supported and praised by enemies of the UK and of democracy in general? 

Indeed our PM and others have had multiple meetings with one S Bannon, a key trump ally.

Brexit has reduced the UK to an international joke. The current government is following Trump's example, by lying in industrial quantities, attacking the courts, reducing parliamentary oversight, rewarding party donors and overriding any checks intended to prevent corruption.  The UK's democracy is dying, killed by 'taking back control'.  Indeed we have lost control. Lost control of our own country and lost international influence.

A former editor of the Sun has called for war against France today. The current Home Secretary suggested starving the Irish as a negotiating tactic, and this week endangered an ongoing man-slaughter trial. The Attorney General approved legislation that would have broken international law if enacted, and recently suggested that judges should ignore sentencing guidelines created by parliament. The Prime Minister conspired to have a journalist assaulted. Are these people who's values you share?  Because these are the people who you have put in control. Populists of the worst sort. I am ashamed of this country.






 

[Brains]

Politically, outside we have NO voice. Inside we have one.

My arse did we have one! Cameron tried for his red lines, which were summarily rejected! They called our bluff (ably demonstrating that a nation is too small to have any say in the EU), they lost.

Chris.

Yes we did, via our democratically elected MEPs and other elected representatives at various summits. Being one voice of many means a compromise has to be made and agreements found. The UK trying to bully the EU was a ridiculous and petulant standpoint. The EU is Democratic for all its members, not just the gammon in the UK...

[Andy Farrant]

The whole Brexit charade is so sad, especially as the whole argument was based on so many false premises, crass slogans and outright lies, just so some right wing politicians can say they reclaimed 'sovereignty'.  For what? I now have less freedom and my kids fewer opportunities, but yay, I have a blue passport and we can catch our 'own' fish... What is 'sovereignty' anyway in this era of globalisation and interlinked networks? In my experience it is always better to work collaboratively than stand alone; same goes for nation states. And by working to a set of common standards, we all benefit. Getting off the boat doesn't help us in the slightest. Most people now think Brexit was a bad idea, and sadly they are being proved right.

[Brains]

Politically, outside we have NO voice. Inside we have one.

My arse did we have one! Cameron tried for his red lines, which were summarily rejected! They called our bluff (ably demonstrating that a nation is too small to have any say in the EU), they lost.

Chris.