Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 9631 times)

Offline Ed

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #50 on: December 23, 2020, 02:58:45 pm »
Does anyone think that if Remain had won we'd still be discussing Brexit? The truth is that Remain ignored the country at large and believed what the Westminster bubble told them. Anyway you have to credit the remainiacs - they may last longer than Trump and his supporters , one or two of whom have accepted he lost however grudgingly.

Probably, as a group of wealth anti -EU folk have been moaning and bitching for 40 years since the previous referendum.
   Then they saw the moves to shut down tax dodging, money laundering about to be brought in by the EU and they finally  flipped out
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 03:27:03 pm by Ed »

Online Duck ditch

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #51 on: December 23, 2020, 03:23:11 pm »
Oh no.  I’m not clicking on anymore links on this forum. ;D
I’ve done it twice already.  The first time I had to reset my history etc because I got bombarded with conspiracy theories on the origins of coronavirus and its manipulations by bill gates.  The second time I got bombarded by sites inviting me on pheasants shoots by people who said pheasant shooting is good for the environment.  By researchers equivalent to benson and hedges saying smoking doesn’t cause cancer or Exxon saying there is no such thing as global warming.
I’m not doing it again  ;D.  I shall have to wait for the United States of Europe. Does it include Turkey joining the eu too.

Online droid

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2020, 03:40:01 pm »
Interesting that the Brexit argument can now be simplified to 'I'm right, you're wrong,, f**k off!'

If you have a decent pension, your own house and a bit in the bank, these times are quite interesting. For anyone else they must be pretty scary.
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2020, 04:02:26 pm »
This (which appeared an hour ago) makes for interesting reading:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-55416939

If Brexit turns out to be as awful as many people believe it will be, the idea of rejoining probably will surface.

If Johnson's lot doesn't come up with a deal, a great many people are going to feel very badly let down.

Online Fjell

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #54 on: December 23, 2020, 05:09:05 pm »
A deal will likely be announced today. There will be some screaming about it, then we can chunter on with modifying it for the next 50 odd years.

It is going to be swings and roundabouts, and it will take a decade at least to tell the difference. Given our geographical position we will always get benefit from the proximity of the EU. But (as with the Euro) some benefits from being able to play off it.

As long as we keep buying shiny Audis I imagine all will be happy.


Offline Ian Ball

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #55 on: December 23, 2020, 10:23:27 pm »
Conservatives, here to help those who can help themselves.

Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #56 on: December 23, 2020, 11:46:21 pm »
Looks like the highways of Kent may not end up being lined with bottles of 'truckers cider' after all. Be interesting to see how the Tory nutjobs like Mark Francois (oh the irony of the surname) welcome the deal.

Offline al

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2020, 07:16:24 am »
I strongly suspect that this has been played out right up to the wire, with the threat of "no deal" looming, so that most people will be relieved to get any deal whatsoever.

Let's hope that enough of us see through this pantomime and realise that it is high time the UK adopted the kind of democracy that almost every other country on the planet uses, based upon PR. Then all our votes might count, and maybe,just maybe, our politicians will take their jobs seriously and work together.
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Online Fjell

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #58 on: December 24, 2020, 09:43:09 am »
I strongly suspect that this has been played out right up to the wire, with the threat of "no deal" looming, so that most people will be relieved to get any deal whatsoever.

Let's hope that enough of us see through this pantomime and realise that it is high time the UK adopted the kind of democracy that almost every other country on the planet uses, based upon PR. Then all our votes might count, and maybe,just maybe, our politicians will take their jobs seriously and work together.

We had a coalition from 2010 to 2015, and vast numbers of people dedicated themselves to trying to make it fail. They succeeded to the point of making it pretty much impossible any time in the foreseeable future. Having a poison pill like the SNP who are disinterested in Uk-wide issues pretty much seals the deal.

There are a number of European countries who struggle badly with PR. And in some countries has given oxygen to some quite extreme groups who then build on it. You can’t set significant thresholds because in the UK that could leave nationalists with zero seats (even if you thought that was a good outcome). I am happy that UKIP never got the 30-50 seats they would have under PR, meanie that I am. And I also am really quite sniffy about a party list system. And it would be the end of independents, of which there are a few, particularly in Wales.

Offline al

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #59 on: December 24, 2020, 01:02:13 pm »
We had a coalition from 2010 to 2015, and vast numbers of people dedicated themselves to trying to make it fail.

The 2010 coalition would have been more effective if the liberals had had the guts to either stick to their principles or walk away. As it was it was more a conservative government propped up by libs - hardly a good example of politicians working together. And the PR referendum offered by Cameron was based on the alternative vote system, a system little used elsewhere and very unpopular with either the libs or the tories - i.e. a referendum designed to fail, which it did.

Thought out correctly, PR should give voters more incentive to use their votes, meaning more voters and thus more democratic - even if it does let in MPs for parties you might not like. FPTP is way down on anybody's scale of democratic frameworks - but it's very reassuring for minority parties who have spent many years re-working the constituancy boundaries to their own advantage.
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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #60 on: December 24, 2020, 06:07:49 pm »
Looks like they have managed to sort a deal out today after all.
One less worry in what has been a truly grim year. Bring on 2021.

Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #61 on: December 25, 2020, 01:16:48 am »
Four and a half years to get to a less favourable deal than the one we had, and judging by the noise on the DM website doesn't even satisfy the diehard Brexiters. And it means, that unless I make it rich in the next 10 years I'm unlikely to be able to retire to France.

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #62 on: December 25, 2020, 09:03:23 am »
It's never going to satisfy the diehards, but it might well be a pragmatic least worst solution.

Chris.
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Offline StealthYak

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #63 on: December 25, 2020, 09:20:15 am »
When you spend 4 years running the clock down because you know from the start that you can never deliver what you persuaded people to vote for all that is left is the choice between a very crap deal and an even worse no deal.  Is that what you mean by a pragmatic choice ?

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #64 on: December 25, 2020, 10:24:19 am »
As someone who always believed, on balance, that it would have been better to have stayed in, yesterday's news was far less bad than it could have been. But it's already history and there's nothing we can do now except pull together as a nation, look forwards rather than backwards -  and make the best of it.

Hey, it'll be 2021 soon!  :)

Online Fjell

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #65 on: December 25, 2020, 11:00:00 am »
When you spend 4 years running the clock down because you know from the start that you can never deliver what you persuaded people to vote for all that is left is the choice between a very crap deal and an even worse no deal.  Is that what you mean by a pragmatic choice ?

I told people before the referendum it was a choice being in the EU and what we have now, because there is no other logical outcome. All other outcomes are worse than being in the EU with no possibility of compensation elsewhere. It was never the situation that the UK got to choose some optimal state, there is another party with it’s own interests. And the UK is a threat given it’s size, we are not Iceland. So we are exactly where I thought we would end up.

I would point out that the large number of theoretical estimates used by the OBR on Brexit productivity impact are still way smaller than the gap that existed already in 2015 between the UK and most of NW Europe. That would be a good place to start thinking about stuff. If you have ever worked in Germany or the Netherlands you will be painfully aware of the embarrassing differences in efficiency. Which BTW extends to things like healthcare too.

People need to let go of old thinking and comfortable ways and take a risk. It’s not been happening enough. People are obsessed with dividing up what they think is a big pie and not anywhere near enough on making it bigger. To do that in a world where the return from manual labour is pitiful means upping overall skill levels to attract investment. Nearly 40% of kids still leave year 11 without grade 4 in maths and English. It’s appalling, and a lot of it is down to a lack of urgency or giving a shit, not time spent in class (11 years of education and half can’t do long multiplication properly). We spend more on education per child than France and Germany with a poorer outcome. It can’t go on like this if people want this standard of living.

Luckily it seems 600,000 HK Chinese are in the post. That should inject some urgency.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2020, 11:27:38 am by Fjell »

Offline aardgoose

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #66 on: December 25, 2020, 12:11:22 pm »
Quote
there's nothing we can do now except pull together as a nation, look forwards rather than backwards

No.  I am not helping the people who I have no values in common with, I am not a collaborator. They have removed rights from me and my wider family. Those people are the ones who want to take us backwards, and further remove my rights. I am never working with the people who were quite happy for me to be jailed for existing, and would like those days to return. I am not supporting a country run by a party that is little short of the BNP.

Appeasement never works.

We have a government that relies on an uneducated and uninformed population to stay in power, we have a culture where ignorance is celebrated, where science and engineering are seen as something for the lower ranks. This isn't a moment where the country is moving forwards, we have made the country much less attractive to investors, to skilled people who can expect to face more hostility. We have hobbled our industry with more red tape than ever, with much of beyond our control.

The UK is a much poorer, nastier place and the damage will take decades to undo. There is nothing to look forward to.




Online Fulk

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #67 on: December 25, 2020, 12:58:34 pm »
What do you expect from a prime minister who joined the Bullingdon Club 'when he was up at Oxford'?

Online pwhole

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #68 on: December 25, 2020, 01:43:23 pm »
aardgoose pretty much saved me the typing. I look forward to the day when we can use Johnson as a giant pink piñata - metaphorically of course ;)




Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #69 on: December 25, 2020, 01:45:02 pm »
In such situations, one is reminded of the words that Sinead O'Connor famously began one of her songs:

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.




Online Fulk

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #70 on: December 25, 2020, 02:45:44 pm »
 You know, Pitlamp, I’ve never really ‘got’ this:

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Why should one go round changing things just because one can?

Perhaps what she should have said was:

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can IF THEY NEED CHANGING,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Offline aardgoose

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #71 on: December 25, 2020, 03:12:05 pm »
that is more inline with the quote's original formulation. Though it isn't Ms O'Connor's fault.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer

Although there is a great difference between accepting this countries descent into a Randian hellhole and actively encouraging it.

Online Fulk

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #72 on: December 25, 2020, 04:07:30 pm »
Thanks aardgoose.

Online royfellows

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #73 on: December 25, 2020, 08:20:32 pm »
Regardless of me regarding this whole thread as a waste of server space, I would like to make a few points.

The outcome of elections and referenda is decided by what is usually known as the “silent majority”
They are called this because (a) They are silent. (b) They form the majority.

To expand the arguments, (a) is best described in terms of what they don’t do. I mean that they don’t wage keyboard battle on social media, march through the streets, wave placards, or attempt to make political points on caving website forums.
(b) Is simple in that as already stated they decide the outcome of elections and referendums. And as such, you never really know what they are thinking until the results are declared.

Now the thing to realise is that regardless of some people banging away at all of the various activities described above in (a), it doesn’t make a blinding bit of difference to (b).
Dead simple

Have good Christmas, what’s left of it, and hopefully a better New year.
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Offline mikem

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #74 on: December 25, 2020, 08:41:44 pm »

Let's hope that enough of us see through this pantomime and realise that it is high time the UK adopted the kind of democracy that almost every other country on the planet uses, based upon PR. Then all our votes might count, and maybe,just maybe, our politicians will take their jobs seriously and work together.
Circa 89 countries (although this includes places like Russia that are barely democracies) out of 197 (or so), so less than half...

& on the subject of serenity, it's assumed you don't want to mess with stuff that you don't think should be changed!

 

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