North Face Supporting Cave Destruction

[gingernutcrazy]

Looks like The North Face are now supporting active damage to caves and Speleothems.
The further issue is I've already seen a comment around saying "Let's try this in the Dales"......

https://www.facebook.com/.../a.95211196.../1639754326210248/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CON68gAB1cy/

[gingernutcrazy]

Looks like The North Face are now supporting active damage to caves and Speleothems.
The further issue is I've already seen a comment around saying "Let's try this in the Dales"......

https://www.facebook.com/.../a.95211196.../1639754326210248/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CON68gAB1cy/

This FB Link should work https://www.facebook.com/groups/217322091663839/permalink/4094711627258180/

[David Rose]

People need to look at this.

For commercial reasons and so-called sport, North Face has sponsored the desecration of a fine array of formations, with the use of chalk, and in the increasingly heated Facebook thread, the perpetrators are refusing to back down against a swelling chorus of dismay from cavers, some of them quite well known.

Not acceptable, let alone - as those responsible seem to think - cool.

[EFRESHW]

Ugh. This was so uncomfortable to watch. Big Yikes. It made me so shocked and dismayed. However, the Instagram comments made me feel a hell of a lot better, since *ALOT* of them were in disgust at it, too. 
Cave conservation is becoming such a high priority for me right now, and the only upside I can muster out is that we're all doing a great job in getting the word out and doing the best we can to educate new cavers. It was a main focus when I was a fresher, and I want that part of our community to be maintained.

[Fjell]

Set the NSS on North Face if they are actually paying money to these people. Those involved will rapidly find themselves NRB.

[2xw]

It's a shame about what has happened to climbing, suffering from its own popularity.

[Steve Clark]

Actually now being reported on UKClimbing as (apparently good) news. Outrageous.

[Mark]

North Face has sponsored the desecration of a fine array of formations, with the use of chalk,

Although I disapprove of any sort of sponsorship for this type of activity, are chalk and calcite not made of exactly the same stuff,

I can also think of several places in the Peak District, where cavers have taken considerably less care, ascending calcite ramps and walls to access new passages

[2xw]

North Face has sponsored the desecration of a fine array of formations, with the use of chalk,

Although I disapprove of any sort of sponsorship for this type of activity, are chalk and calcite not made of exactly the same stuff,

I can also think of several places in the Peak District, where cavers have taken considerably less care, ascending calcite ramps and walls to access new passages

I wouldn't be as arsed if they'd done it for fun on their own. We have all damaged stuff underground one way or another - but it's the commercialisation of that damage that ires me, and the presentation of it as something that is desirable and fun. I don't see any difference between it and those lads that filmed themselves spray painting in Giants

[pwhole]

I don't see any difference between it and those lads that filmed themselves spray painting in Giants

And if facebook and Instagram weren't involved, chances are neither of these events would have even taken place. 'The medium is the message', to quote a philostopher. I just watched some dumb-ass woman telling breakfast news that she no longer wants to promote her fat-ass Indian snake-oil potion to her 'followers' (she's just like Jesus) as it's potentially lethal - despite spending the last year flogging it to death on facebook and Instagram, directly causing all sorts of misery and health issues for young women who think they need a fat ass, as people on facebook and Instagram told them they need one. She only just found out it's potentially lethal, apparently.

[mikem]

The full article (with their justifications & others' comments):
http://onceuponaclimb.co.uk/portfolio-posts/underground-climbing/

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1639754449543569&id=169053393280356&anchor_composer=false

We'll see if the film appears on Wednesday...

[royfellows]

The full article (with their justifications & others' comments):
http://onceuponaclimb.co.uk/portfolio-posts/underground-climbing/

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1639754449543569&id=169053393280356&anchor_composer=false

We'll see if the film appears on Wednesday...

I have just tried the first link and cant get in. Probably server overload with all the people who want to see what possible justification etc

[mikem]

It does take a while, but that could just be the website, as dated 2013

[pwhole]

It took about five mins to load for me, but it did eventually. Possibly they forgot to scale the images to web-size, and their server's having to do it on-the-fly for every request, as the text that's up there is certainly not overwhelming in volume.

[SamT]

Climbing has always gone on underground.

From the big bolt climbs of Ben Bentham in Oxlow, Busters journey across the roof of peak cavern vestibule, Malc Taylors esoterica in Eldon hole, (recently repeated, and a new route added up the west wall opposite https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/eldon_hole-27090 )

Dave Macleod climbing out of Jingling in prep for his free version of busters route at Peak cavern as seen on TV. 

Its nothing new, and as Mark points out, those who live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones.  Cavers, collectively over the years have been totally responsible for the desecration of flowstone formations in their quest to explore further, which may well be excusable in the first instance of virgin exploration, but these formations often then just become part of a trade route and suffer accordingly.

I was expecting to see much worse when I clicked on the video, snapping stal, avalanches of loose rock being gardened and crashing down the formations etc etc.

Looks like they placed a few bolts and gingerly climbed out. No worse than any cavers actions underground.

All that being said, its a total publicity stunt and one of the reasons that James Pearson bugs the life out of me.  Impressive as his climbing is, and he's genuinely one if the most talented climbers in the world, he's just at total media whore. Everything he and Carloline do is done in a total Social Media/Sponsorship frame. Even worse than Ondra so I've very little attention span for anything they do really.

So from that angle, I'm perfectly happy for them to be called out on it.

[ZombieCake]

Preserving the environment is fine and dandy, until there's money or other incentive involved.
People should have learned from the mistakes made in the past to prevent future desecrations as far as possible, and not emulate them. Of course there's a balance to be struck, but that should be based on a real need with no other option, and not just for glory.  Couldn't they have just SRT'd the 'once upon a climb' pitch in the link?

[PeteHall]

Cavers, collectively over the years have been totally responsible for the desecration of flowstone formations in their quest to explore further, which may well be excusable in the first instance of virgin exploration, but these formations often then just become part of a trade route and suffer accordingly.

True, but if it's the only way to get somewhere, it in basically unavoidable.

Looks like they placed a few bolts and gingerly climbed out. No worse than any cavers actions underground.

Except that it was climbed simply for the thrill of climbing it, to reach a point that was already accessible by another better route (eg, walking to it from outside). The damage caused here was completely avoidable and may well inspire others to do similar avoidable damage elsewhere.

[SamT]

Except that it was climbed simply for the thrill of climbing it, to reach a point that was already accessible by another better route (eg, walking to it from outside). The damage caused here was completely avoidable and may well inspire others to do similar avoidable damage elsewhere.

Yeah - totally agree.  Pure publicity stunt as per usual with those two.  But I'm just not sure the derision voiced on here is quite warranted.  As far as I could see, they didn't really damage anything.

[ttxela2]

Except that it was climbed simply for the thrill of climbing it, to reach a point that was already accessible by another better route (eg, walking to it from outside). The damage caused here was completely avoidable and may well inspire others to do similar avoidable damage elsewhere.

Yeah - totally agree.  Pure publicity stunt as per usual with those two.  But I'm just not sure the derision voiced on here is quite warranted.  As far as I could see, they didn't really damage anything.

I've had 6 year olds who've visited a couple of showcaves explain to me how you shouldn't touch the formations.

The cynic in me wonders if they knew full well this would cause some controversy. Certainly a lot more people have seen it and talked about it than if they'd done a normal caving trip. No such thing as bad publicity etc..

[Cantclimbtom]

... ... No such thing as bad publicity etc..

I'm not so sure about that, my first thought is a glib "oh yes? just ask Garry Glitter's booking agent" to whether all publicity is ultimately good.

But, a more sensible answer is to look closer at James Pearson who was filmed climbing that with his wife Caro (Caroline Ciavaldini). He had some negative publicity a few years ago and accused of mis-grading things (not cool as a climber!) and various criticism, from a publicity standpoint he kind of had to redeem himself.
I'd have thought that he would've been extra cautious to avoid any negative publicity or controversy and definitely wouldn't want to be perceived as damaging anything. I'm baffled by this!

Edit, there's even a film about his redemption, called... guess what...
Teaser trailer here: https://www.hotaches.com/climbing-films/redemption-the-james-pearson-story  if you like climbing the film is actually very good, think it's free to view on Amazon prime?

Edit2:  maybe this is so he can have a sequel to that film "Redemption2: how I feel bad about damaging cave formations"

[mikem]

TBF North Face either haven't used this in their social media, or removed it pretty early on. It's been posted by the climbers' themselves (with support from the caver who seems to have suggested it to them).

[lumenchild]

I'd like to see them try climb Diccan, in winter full flow LoL,

that being said the commercialisation of caving, is going to cause a massive spike in CRO callouts, from inexperienced people in caves, ill Equipped thinking they are Indiana Jones,

If that happens will we have to look at a cap, key, and permit system, on caves grade 3 and higher, with life-changing verticality, with a vertical cavers proficiency card, and will we have to have even more protections for SSSI's

the list of problems this could create are phenomenal, but I guess only time will tell,  I would Urge the BCA & BCRA to release a statement on their stance of climbing in caves, using chalk ect...  and trad gear like cam's and nuts, instead of designated bolts,
With a Re-release of the dangers of using dynamic rope in caves, and the sharp edges of eroded limestone,   

[PeteHall]

Playing devil's advocate for a minute:

People are usually complaining that cavers are getting older and not enough people are getting into the sport. Perhaps this is a great way to sex-up caving and generate a wider appeal?

It's surely just another way to enjoy the incredible cave environment. 

[Pitlamp]

I'm hoping that the following was tongue in cheek:

"we have to look at a cap, key, and permit system, on caves grade 3 and higher, with life-changing verticality, with a vertical cavers proficiency card"   

[JoshW]

I'd like to see them try climb Diccan, in winter full flow LoL,

that being said the commercialisation of caving, is going to cause a massive spike in CRO callouts, from inexperienced people in caves, ill Equipped thinking they are Indiana Jones,

If that happens will we have to look at a cap, key, and permit system, on caves grade 3 and higher, with life-changing verticality, with a vertical cavers proficiency card, and will we have to have even more protections for SSSI's

the list of problems this could create are phenomenal, but I guess only time will tell,  I would Urge the BCA & BCRA to release a statement on their stance of climbing in caves, using chalk ect...  and trad gear like cam's and nuts, instead of designated bolts,
With a Re-release of the dangers of using dynamic rope in caves, and the sharp edges of eroded limestone,   

This is one helluva comment to dissect. Like Pitlamp, I'm desperately hoping the entire thing is tongue in cheek.