Author Topic: BCA stuff we voted on  (Read 2894 times)

Offline Ian Adams

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BCA stuff we voted on
« on: October 12, 2021, 10:10:10 pm »
After following the link in the the voting email and clicking yes, no, abstain etc on the various proposals ... they all seemed to bugger off into the aether at the end.

I realise that, after voting, you cannot go back and re-vote BUT is it possible to see the motions (especially the wording) that we were voting on?

Is there a link anywhere?

Thanks

Ian
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Offline Shapatti

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2021, 10:14:14 pm »
Motions found in summary on this page https://british-caving.org.uk/agm-2021/
And found in full in the AGM Agenda linked to on the same web page.

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2021, 10:29:20 pm »
Thanks for that swift reply ...

What I am trying to locate is the wording of this;

6) Update to the Equality and Diversity Policy (widening it from applying to employees to members)

Specifically, the wording  (which is absent from the link to be BCA eAGM)
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Offline Ian Adams

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2021, 10:34:02 pm »
I have now found it;

Proposal 6
Update to the Equality and Diversity Policy
To update the equality and inclusion policy and align it with the policies and set up of the
association.
Under purpose insert the following wording: For the purpose of this document members refers to
any individual, club, access control body, constituent body or employee.
Under equality and diversity section add the following wording: There are six types of
discrimination set out in the Equality Act 2010 and this policy covers all of them (in conjunction
with the association's bullying and harassment policy).
Direct discrimination – where someone is treated less favourably than another person because of
a protected characteristic.
Associative discrimination – this is direct discrimination against someone because they are
associated with another person who possesses a protected characteristic.
Discrimination by perception – this is direct discrimination against someone because others think
that they possess a particular protected characteristic. They do not necessarily have to possess the
characteristic, just be perceived to.
Indirect discrimination – this can occur when you have a rule or policy that applies to everyone
but disadvantages a person with a particular protected characteristic.
Harassment – this is behaviour that is deemed offensive by the recipient. Employees can now
complain of the behaviour they find offensive even if it is not directed at them. Victimisation –
this occurs when someone is treated badly because they have made or supported a complaint or
grievance under this legislation.
Point 9 needs to be bulleted points as part of point 8, as it's just listing the protected
characteristics. Point 10 should change employees to members. Point 11 should read 'No form of
intimidation, bullying or harassment will be tolerated. If you believe that you or anyone else may
have suffered discrimination because of any of the protected characteristics, you should consider
following the complaints procedure of the association'. Point 13: replace employees with
members.
Arguments for:
The existing equality and diversity policy was a great base for a policy, but needed slight tweaks
to line this up with the association, and to set out clearly exactly what is covered under the policy
for avoidance of doubt.
Proposed by Josh White (14859), seconded by Rostam Namaghi (10644)
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Offline Ian Adams

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2021, 10:42:26 pm »
I have no clue or understanding what, if any, wording already exists and what we are actually supposed to be voting on.

Whilst I am having a "moan", I also didn't understand anything about what we were supposed to be voting for on section 10.1 and the ballet questions were impenetrable.

Obviously folk who know what is going on will know but folk on the fringe (who also don't do "tech") have virtually no chance.

It's obviously too late to complain (so this is just a basic whinge) but the first opportunity to "not know what the fook is going on" presented itself when the ballot email arrived. I know it can be said that the AGM minutes etc were available but I couldn't find them and when I did, there is way too much confusion for an ordinary man/woman/non-binary/whatever to be able to decipher the code.

Let the stoning commence.

Ian
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Offline Ian Ball

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2021, 10:58:08 pm »
Proposal 6 : Update to the Equality and Diversity Policy

Purpose

"To update the equality and inclusion policy and align it with the policies and set up of the association"


For the purpose of this document 'members' refers to any individual, club, access control body, constituent body or employee.

Under equality and diversity section add the following wording:

There are six types of discrimination set out in the Equality Act 2010 and this policy covers all of them (in conjunction with the association's bullying and harassment policy).

  • Direct discrimination – where someone is treated less favourably than another person because of a protected characteristic.
  • Associative discrimination – this is direct discrimination against someone because they are associated with another person who possesses a protected characteristic.
  • Discrimination by perception – this is direct discrimination against someone because others think they possess a particular protected characteristic. They do not necessarily have to possess the characteristic, just be perceived to.
  • Indirect discrimination – this can occur when you have a rule or policy that applies to everyone but disadvantages a person with a particular protected characteristic.
  • Harassment – this is behaviour deemed offensive by the recipient. Employees can now complain of the behaviour they find offensive even if it's not directed at them.
  • Victimisation – this occurs when someone is treated badly because they have made or supported a complaint or grievance under this legislation.

Point 9 needs to be bulleted points as part of point 8, as it's just listing the protected
characteristics.

Point 10 should change employees to members.

Point 11 should read 'No form of intimidation, bullying or harassment will be tolerated. If you believe that you or anyone else may have suffered discrimination because of any of the protected characteristics, you should consider following the complaints procedure of the association'.

Point 13: replace employees with members.

Arguments for:

The existing equality and diversity policy was a great base for a policy, but needed slight tweaks to line this up with the association, and to set out clearly exactly what is covered under the policy for avoidance of doubt.

Proposed by Josh White, seconded by Rostam Namaghi



Not sure if that is easier to read or not.



Ian, before I cast my stone (a rather nice one so I'd like it back if you don't mind) did you read the agenda beforehand, attend the AGM, listen to the podcasts or contact a representative either group or individual? 
I ask as if you did all of those and still aren't sure then no worries.  If you didn't do any research then I'm not sure what to say.   :-\









Offline JoshW

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2021, 11:00:39 pm »
It's a valid point Ian, and something perhaps I should have considered when generating the proposal (including a link to the document).

The equality and diversity policy is available on the BCA website under "Policies and Plans of the Association": https://british-caving.org.uk/about-bca/bca-council/official-documents/

In layman's terms, the proposal:
- extends the policy to cover all members of the policy instead of the employees. If approved the policy will set out exactly who is expected to abide by the policy in order to be a member of the association
- sets out more clearly the parameters of the policy and what is considered discrimination by law
- it also aligns the policy that any complaints or concerns arising due to the policy will be dealt with by the BCA complaints procedure, as all concerns and complaints need to be taken seriously and dealt with consistently (note this is procedural consistency not consistency of outcome, which may vary dependent on the initial concern/complaint - a point often missed).
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Offline Shapatti

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2021, 11:02:51 pm »
I would second that there is some confusion with the wording of the motions not delivering the full message.

In particular the summary for 'Proposal 1' seems to not actually line up quite right with the full motion, something which confused myself as it was my impression that Regional Councils already had the ability to appoint their own Bolt Installers, just not the ability to authorise the Training or Trainers... I believe this is currently under the oversight of the E&T Committee?

Having some background with how BCA and the Regional Councils work, I knew that something didn't sound right so went looking for the actual proposal.
Most members voting on the proposals would not see this though, the first thing that most of them would see is the email asking them to vote and most being busy or mostly non-engaging, would most likely only check the summary, therefore they would think they are voting for something different to the actual proposal.
Though I guess this is a continuance of the problem of how much the average BCA member actually engages with the BCA...

Am I reading into this wrong?

As seen below, the disparity between the Summary and Proposal.
The Summary (From the BCA Website and Voting Portal)
Quote
1. Proposal to alter the BCA Anchor Scheme Policy to allow Regional Council to appoint Bolt Installers

The Actual Proposal (From the AGM Agenda)
Quote
Proposal 1

I would like to propose the following change to Section 5 of the BCA Anchor Policy on behalf of
the members of the E&T committee. The proposal is to replace the paragraph,
“Regional Councils shall take responsibility for the training of persons who will be authorized to
place designated anchors on their behalf. The delivery of training and assessment will be
undertaken by individuals authorized by the E&T committee.”

with,

"Regional Councils shall take responsibility for the training of persons who will be authorized to
place designated anchors on their behalf. The delivery of training and assessment will be
undertaken by individuals authorized by the appropriate Regional Council, who are already
authorised to place anchors under the scheme. The Regional Council will pay particular
attention to the ability of the proposed trainer to not only instruct candidates to install anchors
but also to assess the candidate’s competence for judging the location of new anchors and their
ability to safely install anchors on location."

The reason for this proposal is that authorization of installer trainers by the E&T committee
usually seems like an unnecessarily bureaucratic step – individuals are often not known by most
of the E&T committee, so the committee just take the recommendation from the regional council
on the basis that they wouldn’t recommend somebody unsuitable, and the process just ends up as
a formality. The proposed change will eliminate this step. The proposal was agreed by all
members of the E&T committee in November 2020.

Proposed by Mark Sims





Offline JoshW

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2021, 11:08:43 pm »
Ian, before I cast my stone (a rather nice one so I'd like it back if you don't mind) did you read the agenda beforehand, attend the AGM, listen to the podcasts or contact a representative either group or individual? 
I ask as if you did all of those and still aren't sure then no worries.  If you didn't do any research then I'm not sure what to say.   :-\

In fairness, my proposal was discussed very little at the AGM or on the podcast - due to prior engagements, I was unable to contribute to either - so they possible won't help.

I am however a group representative on council, with contact details all over the BCA website, I'm if anything a little too active on here, and easily reachable on facebook as well - and haven't had anyone contact me about the proposal.
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2021, 11:35:58 pm »
Ian B …

Thanks for your formatting, yes it helps greatly. That format was not “viewed” when I clicked through the various links BUT I don’t know if the “bullet points” already exist or whether they are being proposed (and voted on).

There are several lines below referring to points 9, 10, 11 and 13 … to what do they relate?

The “arguments for” seems to state that the proposals are “tweaks” BUT, if I understand correctly (and I haven’t so far) one of those “tweaks” is to change the word “employees” to “members” – that is scarcely a “tweak” but rather a momentous movement equivalent to the eruption of Vesuvius in AD 79 (if I understand correctly).

I guess what I am asking is; what existed before, what are we voting to change and what do 9, 10, 11 and 13 refer to?

Did I read the agenda before hand – no, I didn’t know it was available (probably wouldn’t have been able to get at it anyway given my inability to find just this part)

Did I attend the AGM – no, I was told (as we all were) not to bother unless we actually intended to participate but to watch the stream instead on Facebook (I didn’t know what was going to happen and didn’t know the rules as to whether I could participate in any event)

Did I listen to the podcasts – yes, I listened to the first 5-10 minutes of Rostam’s podcast and (sorry Rostam) I understood none of it. All I heard was proposed changes to section something or other and I didn’t know what was going on  - so I turned it off. Sorry.

Did I contact a Rep – no, why would I? I have never considered that as an option (my ignorance).

What research did I do – well, I knew there was an AGM, I wanted to “be there” but was told “no” unless I wanted to actually speak – I didn’t know that I actually wanted to speak and because the places were limited to 100 I did as I was supposed to and declined the zoom. Next thing I get an email asking me to vote.

All I was asking here was “what were we voting on” – especially this discrimination stuff as I didn’t understand it. Also, (I suppose) I didn’t know what the proposals were until the eBallot thing arrived – I was expecting a Russell Vs. Rostam tick box only.

If your stone doesn’t knock me out, I will be happy to return it.  :)



JoshW …

There isn’t anything wrong with your proposal – it’s just me that doesn’t understand it (sorry).

I can’t collate the ideal that the BCA will deal with any issues arsing viz a viz the multiple proposals over section 10.1 (how the BCA gets involved with complaints – I couldn’t understand those three proposals either).

I also don’t know what is meant by “what is considered discrimination in law” because the (apparent) existing policy appears to step outside of “law” whilst purporting to embrace it.

Please don’t think I am complaining about “you”, I’m not. I simply don’t understand what is going on.

If anyone could throw some more light (with or without stones) I would be grateful.  :)

Ian

 


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Offline JoshW

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2021, 11:50:01 pm »
Quote
I also don’t know what is meant by “what is considered discrimination in law” because the (apparent) existing policy appears to step outside of “law” whilst purporting to embrace it.

Not sure I understand what is meant by this comment, perhaps it's because it's getting late though, and I'm lacking in caffeine, can you clarify?

Effectively the equality act of 2010 sets out 6 types of discrimination. Rather than leave it to interpretation at the point of wanting to put forwards a complaint, or for any member looking to abide by the policy, I thought it sensible to set these out in writing to fully clarify what the types of discrimination are.

Quote
The “arguments for” seems to state that the proposals are “tweaks” BUT, if I understand correctly (and I haven’t so far) one of those “tweaks” is to change the word “employees” to “members” – that is scarcely a “tweak” but rather a momentous movement equivalent to the eruption of Vesuvius in AD 79 (if I understand correctly).

The policy was always intended to be for all members, it's a policy for the association not an employer, I believe this was an oversight on implementation. It would be a bit irrelevant to have a policy for equality and diversity that only related to the one (maybe two? not actually sure) employees that the BCA have, and I believe in the instance of a complaint the policy would have been interpreted as being for all members of the association - but it's best to have full clarity in writing.

Quote
I guess what I am asking is; what existed before, what are we voting to change and what do 9, 10, 11 and 13 refer to?

Hopefully this links directly: https://british-caving.org.uk/documents/equality-diversity-policy/

Quote
Did I contact a Rep – no, why would I? I have never considered that as an option (my ignorance).

It should have been possible to contact either your regional council who could have offered clarity, or any member of BCA council to ask about the proposal, who would likely have sent you my way. I had a big push about 4/5 months ago to try and make the group and individual reps more accountable and available to the membership in order to represent them appropriately, and there was posts on the BCA website with profiles and how to contact them. Clearly there is more work to be done on this front.

I think what your post highlights (and is something BCA probably already know and are working towards), is that improved clarity is needed for the majority of members with regards to some of the constitutional arguments. It has to be said though that this AGM was pretty constitution heavy (particularly with regards to 10.1). I would urge you to give the whole podcast a go, it does make an effort to summarise the arguments around 10.1, but I totally understand that for most people it just gets too far from actual caving.

Thanks,
Josh
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Offline Ian Ball

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2021, 12:09:28 am »
Ian Adams, great post  :thumbsup:

(stone back on the mantlepiece)

Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2021, 08:36:28 am »
This is an interesting post, good points raised!

From my perspective, who had to turn the Agenda into the Online Ballot, I didn't feel that I could make any changes to wording, or even include any significant summary, because then people would be voting on my interpretation of the proposals rather than the proposals themselves.

So I guess the way to improve this would be to have a refinement/editing step between proposal submission and the Agenda?

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2021, 09:45:18 am »

JoshW,

Thank you for your detailed reply – it is very helpful.

For clarity (sorry to keep saying this), I have no problem with you making the proposal.

The easy part first – your link to the equality/diversity policy is hugely helpful – I had no such link when voting and I don’t think anyone could hope to know what the actual amendments were that you were proposing. However, the policy does not set out what is (or is not) discrimination – is there another document?

The harder part being the reference to what purports to be law (that isn’t);

There are several small (trivial) issues which I will ignore for expedience. For the larger part, we must all accept that “the law is the law” and it cannot be trumped by an association’s rules or policies. Where the law is silent, an association can, of course, implement bylaws etc. In doing so, they may not, however, do this under the heading of “law”.

The proposal would seem to apply to every member of the BCA as per this line;

For the purpose of this document 'members' refers to any individual, club, access control body, constituent body or employee.

However, Clubs, Access Control Bodies and Constituent bodies are “not” the BCA (arguably, neither are individual members unless they are acting as the BCA). These “bodies” are associations in their own right and governed by prevailing legislation outside of the BCA. The act provides that (section 100);

An “association” is an association of persons— (a) which has at least 25 members, and (b) admission to membership of which is regulated by the association’s rules and involves a process of selection.

Additionally, Section 195 of the act (Sport) specifically excludes a whole raft of areas of “discrimination” (not mentioned in the BCA policy which states {i]There are six types of discrimination set out in the Equality Act 2010[/i]

None of these exclusions are referred to in the policy leaving “members” to believe that the “law” is as per the 6 protected characteristics per se.

Therefore, if the BCA wishes to impose its “policy” on people/bodies within the BCA then it needs to be saying that the BCA expect such bodies to act in that manner and not profess it to be “law”. Because, “the law” (and the BCA policy) seemingly only applies to people within the BCA acting as the BCA.

More specifically, an internal club issue would not seemingly be governed by the law that pertains to the BCA.

Here is a link to the actual act : https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/pdfs/ukpga_20100015_en.pdf

As I said at the outset, I am whinging because I don’t understand what’s going on – I don’t understand what is trying to be achieved or what I was actually voting for.

Sorry  :'(

Ian
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Offline andrewmc

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2021, 10:16:09 am »
I would note the following things:

With regard to saying exactly what the Section 10.1 proposals mean, I wouldn't like to say - and I actually wrote them. That's because I wouldn't like to try and tie down exactly what Section 10.1 actually means (which, sticking to my purely personal opinion, is surely a good reason to get rid of it...). I did a whole consultation on it, and I still don't know what it means (and I'm sure someone will go 'well obviously it means this'  :read: - the problem is multiple people do that with different answers  :-\ ).

However, since Section 10.1 means different things to different people, we provided a range of options. It's up to the members to decide whether to junk all (2A) or part (2B) of Section 10.1, accept the longer more specific (but still fairly vague and wordy) alternative (2C), or keep the current wording.

With regard to Proposal 3 (restructuring committees), it does many small things which individually aren't that confusing, but some do require you to understand the complex set of current BCA committees and working groups. If passed, of course, this would become a lot less complex as everything would be the same (in structural, but not operational, terms)...

Proposal 4 (Section 8, AGM stuff) is a combination of tidying up and fixing some really irritating things about how AGMs work, and is by nature very technical but should also be very uncontroversial.

Frankly if Proposal 5 (rename Chairman->Chair) doesn't pass, not that I had anything to do with it, then would not be sure I can continue working with an organization whose membership would be that out of touch... fortunately, I expect (hope?) this proposal to pass easily.

Having spent ages on proposals 2A-2C and 4, in particular for proposal 4 going through it in several meetings and then editing it with email exchanges, then submitting them to council, and then _still_ realising there were a few loose ends I had to furiously fix up before submitting to the AGM, writing proposals is hard and most cavers are volunteers, not lawyers...

Things will succeed if people want them to, and will fail if they don't.

Offline kay

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2021, 11:25:47 am »
I have no clue or understanding what, if any, wording already exists and what we are actually supposed to be voting on.

Ian

Did you click the down arrow (or whatever symbol it was) on the voting form which gave a paragraph of explanation of what each motion was? I found that helpful and felt I understood what I was voting on and why (but maybe I'm deluded).

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2021, 11:47:34 am »
Did you click the down arrow (or whatever symbol it was) on the voting form ...


Yes, and the information was helpful. But, in the case of the diversity thingy, it gave a confused, unformatted text with references to 9, 10, 11 an 13 with nothing to point to what they were. After I had clicked through the yes/no options the whole thing vanished so I couldn't revisit any of the wording (which is the basis of this thread)

I do accept that my ignorance of techy stuff is partly/wholly to blame.

 :unsure:

Ian
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Offline JoshW

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2021, 01:26:43 pm »
Quote
For the larger part, we must all accept that “the law is the law” and it cannot be trumped by an association’s rules or policies. Where the law is silent, an association can, of course, implement bylaws etc. In doing so, they may not, however, do this under the heading of “law”.

Correct, my proposal isn't looking to trump the law, merely set out what the law says in relation to discrimination.

Quote
However, Clubs, Access Control Bodies and Constituent bodies are “not” the BCA (arguably, neither are individual members unless they are acting as the BCA). These “bodies” are associations in their own right and governed by prevailing legislation outside of the BCA.

The policy sets out how members of the association are expected to act in order to be part of the association, the association being an agreement between members.
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2021, 01:52:17 pm »
Quote
However, Clubs, Access Control Bodies and Constituent bodies are “not” the BCA (arguably, neither are individual members unless they are acting as the BCA). These “bodies” are associations in their own right and governed by prevailing legislation outside of the BCA.

The policy sets out how members of the association are expected to act in order to be part of the association, the association being an agreement between members.

Are you asking members to adopt the BCA "policy" within their own respective clubs and associations?
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Offline JoshW

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2021, 03:15:40 pm »
Quote
However, Clubs, Access Control Bodies and Constituent bodies are “not” the BCA (arguably, neither are individual members unless they are acting as the BCA). These “bodies” are associations in their own right and governed by prevailing legislation outside of the BCA.

The policy sets out how members of the association are expected to act in order to be part of the association, the association being an agreement between members.

Are you asking members to adopt the BCA "policy" within their own respective clubs and associations?

Not quite.

What, if adopted, the membership would be saying is that these are the rules we agree to abide in order to be members of the association. Clubs can obviously have their own adaptations etc (or not have one at all - although this seems unwise), but there's nothing particularly groundbreaking in there to be honest - hence why it's not had a huge amount of coverage in the lead up to the AGM. If a member was found to be acting outside of the agreement then their membership of the association could theoretically be at stake, but this would need to be dealt with by the appropriate complaints/disciplinary procedures taking on the best advice possible to get to an appropriate resolution.
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Offline droid

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2021, 04:45:02 pm »
Ian, I think you need some light relief from BCA Constitution.

I recommend trying to understand Quantum Physics....
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2021, 09:10:14 pm »
I recommend trying to understand Quantum Physics....

That, Mr Droid, may be just the ticket  :beer2:


Joshw,

I am afraid I am still not understanding or I have made a poor job of asking you the right question.

The link that was earlier provided to the current “equality and diversity policy” does not contain any of the wording set out in the ballot question. For the avoidance of doubt, I mean this;

There are six types of discrimination set out in the Equality Act 2010 and this policy covers all of them (in conjunction with the association's bullying and harassment policy).


•   Direct discrimination – where someone is treated less favourably than another person because of a protected characteristic.
•   Associative discrimination – this is direct discrimination against someone because they are associated with another person who possesses a protected characteristic.
•   Discrimination by perception – this is direct discrimination against someone because others think they possess a particular protected characteristic. They do not necessarily have to possess the characteristic, just be perceived to.
•   Indirect discrimination – this can occur when you have a rule or policy that applies to everyone but disadvantages a person with a particular protected characteristic.
•   Harassment – this is behaviour deemed offensive by the recipient. Employees can now complain of the behaviour they find offensive even if it's not directed at them.
•   Victimisation – this occurs when someone is treated badly because they have made or supported a complaint or grievance under this legislation.


Is that now being included in the wording and part of what we are voting on?

Secondly, I don’t understand your answer for the question I asked regarding whether clubs and associations will be expected/compelled to comply. Clubs and associations cannot be included as they are not the BCA and cannot act as the BCA (and are therefore outside of the scope but are INCLUDED within the wording of the proposal). Further, individuals (or bodies) would, prima facie, only be within the scope if acting as the BCA (seemingly officer and employees) as, otherwise, they would not be acting as the BCA (merely they would be a member of it) – could you clarify the position please?

Thirdly, there is the issue of section 195 of the act which deals with “Sport” - link above. This specifically exempts many cases within sport. For instance, where failure to discriminate puts a party at risk. This would seem to be a “big deal” in the world of caving. Can you clarify whether the lawful exemptions within the act under section 195 apply or whether the BCA intends to ignore those exceptions?

Sorry to keep harping on, I am trying to understand the position properly.

Ian
A door, once opened, may be stepped through in either direction.

Offline JoshW

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2021, 09:41:59 pm »
No apologies needed at all.

I’ve proposed that that wording is inserted into the existing policy.

My understanding, as the association is merely an agreement between members, is that by being a member you “are” the BCA.

The exceptions stated within the legislation would of course apply, as you state the policy cannot trump the law (and we wouldn’t want it to) but I actually think that there are very few instances where the exceptions would apply in caving. Out of the 9 protected characteristics, realistically one (disability)might put a party at risk, the rest wouldn’t in the slightest.

The policy already states “the BCA is committed…to pro-actively tackling and eliminating discrimination”, and as such I would hope member clubs are taking practicable steps to overcome discrimination. I’m hoping to generate some guidance for clubs that can help overcome what might seem like big hurdles.

(Apologies, I’m typing from my phone so this may not make fully coherent sense and I may have missed some points you made, so feel free to keep shooting questions my way.)
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2021, 10:43:19 pm »
Frankly if Proposal 5 (rename Chairman->Chair) doesn't pass, not that I had anything to do with it, then would not be sure I can continue working with an organization whose membership would be that out of touch... fortunately, I expect (hope?) this proposal to pass easily.

For reference, I am out of touch - I voted against it. Simply because the word Chairman is applicable to both male and female human beings.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/chairman
A bit like the word mankind including all human beings rather than just those with a p*nis.
A chair is something I put my arse on, and is not capable of running a meeting.

Chris.
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Offline JoshW

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2021, 11:08:03 pm »
Frankly if Proposal 5 (rename Chairman->Chair) doesn't pass, not that I had anything to do with it, then would not be sure I can continue working with an organization whose membership would be that out of touch... fortunately, I expect (hope?) this proposal to pass easily.

For reference, I am out of touch - I voted against it. Simply because the word Chairman is applicable to both male and female human beings.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/chairman
A bit like the word mankind including all human beings rather than just those with a p*nis.
A chair is something I put my arse on, and is not capable of running a meeting.

Chris.

Why am I not surprised you’ve got this god awful take
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

 

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