Author Topic: BCA stuff we voted on  (Read 4361 times)

Offline Badlad

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2021, 07:30:03 pm »
Going back a few posts to 'chairman'.  That's fine for BCA as it has only ever had a chairman in my experience.  If, heaven forbid, we did ever get a 'chairwoman', are we seriously going to call her a 'chairman', or worse, 'madame chairman'.  Let's try and lay the ground for eventually, perhaps, ever?, getting a woman to 'chair' a meeting.  If I was Chairman, and the boot was on the other foot, I'd not be so keen on being referred to as Chairwoman.  Think about it  ;)

Offline Fishes

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2021, 08:58:25 pm »
If you want to lay the ground for woman chairman then I suggest that people stop all this pointless bickering about titles and get on with the real business of helping cavers.

Its not only pointless, its counterproductive.


Online Ian Ball

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #52 on: October 15, 2021, 09:35:20 pm »
If you want to lay the ground for woman chairman then I suggest that people stop all this pointless bickering about titles and get on with the real business of helping cavers.

Its not only pointless, its counterproductive.

As a member of the bickering masses, I've not meant to be bickering at all, just trying to understand others views.

Badlad! very fun point.



 

Offline droid

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2021, 01:26:19 am »
If the title of the Big Boss is a major problem to BCA then things must be far rosier than they sometimes seem.

Bit of a distraction really...
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Online mikem

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2021, 06:53:31 am »
The reason members vote in committees is to sort out problems like rewording without ever bothering the membership - how did it even get to a public vote...?

Offline droid

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2021, 07:07:32 am »
I'd wager the vast majority of the members couldn't give a monkeys.
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Offline Pete K

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2021, 07:37:38 am »
The reason members vote in committees is to sort out problems like rewording without ever bothering the membership - how did it even get to a public vote...?
Because it is a constitutional change which requires it.

Online mikem

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2021, 07:51:24 am »
"Chair has been used to refer to a seat or office of authority since the middle of the 17th century; its earliest citation in the Oxford English Dictionary dates to 1658–1659, four years after the first citation for chairman."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chairperson

Offline kay

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #58 on: October 16, 2021, 10:05:28 am »
The reason members vote in committees is to sort out problems like rewording without ever bothering the membership - how did it even get to a public vote...?
Because it is a constitutional change which requires it.

And if you allow constitutional change without oversight of the full membership, a small committee can change the organisation to move in a direction that would be against the wishes of the majority of the members.

Offline NewStuff

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #59 on: October 16, 2021, 08:13:54 pm »
And if you allow constitutional change without oversight of the full membership, a small committee can change the organisation to move in a direction that would be against the wishes of the majority of the members.
Much as I heartily dislike the bickering and fighting that inevitably ensues, making certain changes *needs* to be put to ballot. There are elements that have a history of telling porkies and doing WTF they feel like, no reason to make that any easier to accomplish.
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Offline droid

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #60 on: October 16, 2021, 08:20:37 pm »
It's the substitution of a word with a synonym.

So not a change of direction unless you have a particularly vivid imagination.
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Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #61 on: October 16, 2021, 08:58:09 pm »
Dotting I's and crossing T's does not change the letter(s). Changing a word from one same version to another is NOT a constitutional change.

Offline JoshW

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #62 on: October 16, 2021, 10:59:14 pm »
Dotting I's and crossing T's does not change the letter(s). Changing a word from one same version to another is NOT a constitutional change.

And who makes the decision as to what is dotting i’s and crossing t’s?

I’d love to go and change the word interfere in 10.1 for something else that I could consider a synonym without the approval of the membership. The easy way is to make any constitutional change a change that needs approval by the whole membership.
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Offline droid

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #63 on: October 16, 2021, 11:02:35 pm »
The word 'interfere' is an action by BCA.

Whether it's 'chair' or 'chairman' is merely a description of a Committee post.

So your analogy is invalid  :lol:
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Offline JoshW

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #64 on: October 16, 2021, 11:06:28 pm »
The word 'interfere' is an action by BCA.

Whether it's 'chair' or 'chairman' is merely a description of a Committee post.

So your analogy is invalid  :lol:

So somewhere between those is a line to be draw you think? Who draws that line?
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Offline droid

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #65 on: October 16, 2021, 11:09:49 pm »
If you  can't see the difference constitutionally between a post description and an action then there's no hope.... :lol:
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Offline NewStuff

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #66 on: October 17, 2021, 09:27:43 am »
If you  can't see the difference constitutionally between a post description and an action then there's no hope.... :lol:

It doesn't really matter if it is or isn't a constitutional change. If someone goes in and "just changes the title", there will be uproar from the posh seats at the front. You know a faction will latch on to it, and get all shouty about upending the constitution, all these woke types making caving an impossible thing, and various other things a small collective of fevered little minds can dream up..

For those trying to make barriers to entry smaller, they're fecked if they do and fecked if they don't. This way they're covering bases, so while they're undoubtedly in for the usual tut tutting and finger wagging, they've performed the appropriate arse covering by doing it this way.
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Offline BradW

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #67 on: October 17, 2021, 10:38:36 am »
My observations:

My impression is the discussion about the change to "chair" is dominated by people who take far more exception to the change not happening, and those who would prefer it to stay "chairman" probably really don't care too much - the few that like chairman are really not too bothered - and just expressing a preference. So, is all the bluster from the pro-change faction proportionate? - probably not. But the change IS necessary, even if it's really not a major concern.

It reminds me of the Culture Wars currently underway across the Atlantic where silly issues are magnified right out of proportion and nobody promoting the culture war is the slightest bit interested in debating things that matter.

And meanwhile, all this silly arguing is providing a convenient smokescreen for far more substantive changes, which really should be the focus of constructive debate, and which have been sidelined.

Offline NewStuff

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #68 on: October 17, 2021, 02:00:33 pm »
waffle...
Given this is a sock account, I'm not going to bother refuting your point and spin, other than to let you know that yes, we know it's a sock account, and you have zero credibility.

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Online Ian Ball

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #69 on: October 17, 2021, 02:36:20 pm »
Hi Brad, fair enough, Ive not changed my mind so let us stop discussing the Chair v chair prickly issue and move to the more important issues.  Where do you want to start?  10.1?

I will probably be voting to remove it.



« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 02:45:05 pm by Ian Ball »

Online 2xw

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #70 on: October 17, 2021, 05:15:05 pm »
I agree with Ian, come on Brad/Tony/Peter/Graham, tell us what you think of 10.1  ::)

Online mikem

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #71 on: October 17, 2021, 05:38:06 pm »
It really doesn't matter what happens to 10.1, it will make no difference to the powers that the BCA actually have.

Online mikem

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #72 on: October 17, 2021, 09:17:14 pm »
If the notional club doesn't want to listen to BCA then they can already cut funding, or if felt necessary suspend / expel them. Changing the wording will make no difference to that. If the club is happy to discuss, then all is peachy.

Online Ian Ball

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #73 on: October 17, 2021, 09:52:27 pm »
I need a pointer MikeM, under which parts of the current constitution? 

Online mikem

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Re: BCA stuff we voted on
« Reply #74 on: October 17, 2021, 10:18:16 pm »

 

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