Recommended high water "safe locations"

bubba

bubba

Administrator
Prompted by discussion of the recent fatalities in Lower Long Churn, I thought i would start this topic in order that people can share any knowledge of locations that may be good to head to if you are ever faced with rising water. If this is useful we can have one for all areas.

Please post the name of the cave system and identification and clear directions to what may be considered a safe(r) location to try to reach if you find yourself in difficulty.

This may not prove to be a useful topic but if it ever helps to save lives then it's worth it.

Any information published here is merely a guide and will not ensure your safety. Use such information at your own risk.

 
Long Churn:
Others have said 'the ledge above the Cheese Press'. I think this is the ledge used by Morley Potholing Club when they had a flood call out in Long Churn 11 years ago. For a full account, see

http://www.morleycavers.org.uk/

and go to "About the club". Drop down "Fun Meets Reports" and click on "Alum pot on a very wet day,
Oct 1996"
 
Mossdale Caverns:

Many years ago I had the intention of installing a fixed rope partway up the Great Aven as this is one of the few places in the near reaches of the cave which does not flood to the roof. Sadly, I never got around to it but I feel it is worth mentioning now as it would still make a worthwhile project for a locally-based caver and could ultimately help save lives if anyone was ever caught out by flood water between the Marathon crawls and the entrance.
 
In 1950 two UBSS members were trapped by flooding in the Coolagh River Cave in Co Clare. They sat out the flood on a ledge in Double Passage. In 1967 we discovered that the entire cave will fill to the roof in certain conditions.

In 1967 a party of UBSS were trapped by flooding in Little Neath, subsequently we installed a "rescue dump" in Mud Hall. In 1970 another party became trapped in similar fashion and we discovered that the Mud hall location was useless as it was unreachable, if not actually underwater, in such conditions. We subsequently moved the dump to Genesis Gallery, somewhat higher above the stream.

It was maintained by us for some years and subsequently by the WSG, I do not know if it is still there. However, as far as I know the only usage was by hungry diving sherpas who raided it while waiting to carry stuff back from sump 2.

I know that other such dumps have been left in a number of UK & Irish caves. What I don't know is if any of them have ever proved useful (for their original purpose).
 
NigR said:
Mossdale Caverns:

Many years ago I had the intention of installing a fixed rope partway up the Great Aven as this is one of the few places in the near reaches of the cave which does not flood to the roof. Sadly, I never got around to it but I feel it is worth mentioning now as it would still make a worthwhile project for a locally-based caver and could ultimately help save lives if anyone was ever caught out by flood water between the Marathon crawls and the entrance.
Click to expand...

Hi Nig
- for info - there is a rope installed part way up The Great Aven,
- about a third of the way from memory (c12m), would have been installed in the late 1990's. .
The top of the aven does look promising - bit the rock was scarily loose.

Simon Beck said:
Funnily enough there's an insitu rope attached to the roof of the great aven at present, but! i doubt it stays flood proof,
Click to expand...

Has somebody finished off the climb? I wonder what is at the top.....?



Simon Beck said:
if i was on my way out and it began to flood at boulder hall i'm hardly gonna rush back the great aven.
Click to expand...

If I was in Boulder Hall and it started to Flood, I think that i'd head to Confusion Cavern.


In the far reaches of the Marathon Series, Anniversary Chamber at the far end of the High Level Mud Caverns South would be safe from most floods.

regards
Beardy 




 
Thanks to Beardy for the interesting info. Just one thing - are you sure Confusion Cavern never floods?

 
I read this thread yesterday and it really got me thinking. I regularly take groups into Long Churn and have on several occasions changed my mind when I saw the amount of water running down the lane. On these occasions I have used Thistle and Runscar instead. I also understand that Borrins moor cave may be suitable when Long Churn has too much water (though I don't have experience of this myself).

Today I went to Easegill to search out the Manchester Bypass (flood escape route). I wasn't sure I'd be able to find it easily on the way out so we did the route in both directions. Route finding was easy with a copy of the new survey and is quite well described in the guidebooks. From Main Line Terminus we went up to Carrot Chamber, which is really pretty and then joined up with the Manchester Bypass via Crystal passage. This started off deceptively easy but soon dropped to a flat out squirm.
Easegill is not short of places to avoid high water levels but this route may be a usefull route out.

Does anyone have any experience of getting from Stop Pot to Four Ways Chamber and out via Wretched Rabbit in flood conditions? How far up Wretched Rabbit does the water get when Eureka junction is flooded to the roof?
 
I've seen flood debris in the roof of Wretched Rabbit Passage upstream of the climb down from 4-ways chamber - I wouldn't have liked to have been in there last Thursday night for instance. Hypothetically, If the cave was in extreme flood, and I didn't know my way out via Mancs Bypass, I'd certainly choose to sit it out in the high level route.

George.
 
I've seen flood debris in the roof of Wretched Rabbit Passage upstream of the climb down from 4-ways chamber - I wouldn't have liked to have been in there last Thursday night for instance. Hypothetically, If the cave was in extreme flood, and I didn't know my way out via Mancs Bypass, I'd certainly choose to sit it out in the high level route.
Click to expand...
Extreme is proabably when it would flood. I've been down Lancaster when the main stream at Fall Pot was quite a few metres deep, so took the high level route and exited Wretched without a problem. And I would guess the warning associated with the end of the Big Rift is no longer an issue due to the big hole in the floor where the water drops down the Spiral connection.

I also understand that Borrins moor cave may be suitable when Long Churn has too much water (though I don't have experience of this myself).
Click to expand...
Borrins is probably ok if you go in Main? Entrance and along the side passage of Long Inlet. Resurgence entrance is quite obviously best avoided and I would guess Alum Pot Beck Passage could be suspect too!

 
On Wretched Rabbit, ive been told you can get out of there in flood but as someone else pointed out ive seen flood debris in there beyond the chamber towards the surface and thinking about it, it makes sense that on occasions it cold flood as the entrance isnt far above  the dry streambed outside which (not having seen yet) can have a wall of water 1m high coming down in high floods, i imagine at times water can flow in this way which would not be a good time to make your way out. Speculation but i think possible.
 
In the spirit of helpfulness...

Norman Bates Motel is traditionally a good place to shelter if caught out in the lower streamways of Pen y Ghent Pot...if you don't know where it is, check ULSA II or the guidebook! Old psycho crawlers will point out that this location has been trashed by big floods in the past; it may well not save you. On the other hand, Myers' Leap will certainly kill you, if the steamway doesn't, whereas the Motel will give you a fighting chance at least.

It's a big cave (British standards, anyway) for grown ups who know the score and take responsibility for themselves...yeah, they all are, but some play is deeper than others. Read Goon's article in Descent; and he tells you about another place to sit out the Biblical floods...
 
I have sat out a flood at the top of Eerie Pot (Norman Bates Motel). It was bloody uncomfortable as you can't stand up, and we were constantly worried that it would flood (it definitely does flood but not on that occasion).
 
Trog said:
I also understand that Borrins moor cave may be suitable when Long Churn has too much water (though I don't have experience of this )

I have been to Long Churn in flood so we had a look at Borrins. The main entrance and long side passage to the right were almost dry. A small stream at entrance, and thereafter just a few knee deep puddles. Saved an otherwise wasted trip.
Click to expand...
 
Coming out of Lancaster yesterday 15th Sep 13, via Montagu and Fall pot was full to about 15ft below the lip of Montagu, and the streamway was backing up all the way back past the Minuretes area, so I reckon Wretched rabbit would have been underwater as well, no rope on County so we sat it out, water levels dropped enough in a couple of hours to get across on the LHS, but it made me wonder if the water could get high enough to flood into Montagu passage??, streamway filled in a four hours!!
 
Apparently after the big floods in 2005 (I think), the 'tide line' was somewhere below the scaffolding in Kath's Way in Lancaster Hole  :o
 
georgenorth said:
Apparently after the big floods in 2005 (I think), the 'tide line' was somewhere below the scaffolding in Kath's Way in Lancaster Hole  :o
Click to expand...

That would be the scaffolding as you pop out into the chamber that leads off to the Collenades??, that would definitely flow into Montagu then
 
Beardy said:
NigR said:
Mossdale Caverns:

Many years ago I had the intention of installing a fixed rope partway up the Great Aven as this is one of the few places in the near reaches of the cave which does not flood to the roof. Sadly, I never got around to it but I feel it is worth mentioning now as it would still make a worthwhile project for a locally-based caver and could ultimately help save lives if anyone was ever caught out by flood water between the Marathon crawls and the entrance.
Click to expand...

Hi Nig
- for info - there is a rope installed part way up The Great Aven,
- about a third of the way from memory (c12m), would have been installed in the late 1990's. .
The top of the aven does look promising - bit the rock was scarily loose.

Simon Beck said:
Funnily enough there's an insitu rope attached to the roof of the great aven at present, but! i doubt it stays flood proof,
Click to expand...
Has somebody finished off the climb? I wonder what is at the top.....?
Simon Beck said:
if i was on my way out and it began to flood at boulder hall i'm hardly gonna rush back the great aven.
Click to expand...
regards
Beardy
Click to expand...

For the sake of referencing....
The climb was done by Brian Judd BPC and Dr David Gibson ULSA  and if I  recall right it was written up in one of the BPC bulletins

Richard
 
Notts 2 downstream has climbs to inlets with avens  to sit it out if steam passage to wet                Upsteam if stuck above the Nick Point you can traverse high up downsteam and 50m or so along meet the rope up to the flood by pass crawl to join the entrance inlet (inlet 13) this inlet floods to 7m deep at it's junction with the main stream due to water back up from main / Leck sumps .Or you can wait at the Nick Point / Curry inlet untill the water reduces as not an easy travese alt rope does hang to stream level (has flood by pass tag on it) if you found streamway too much. flood bypass has been useful!!!
 
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