CROW make my mind up time bca ballot papers are here

[Simon Wilson]

Some people are getting more than one ballot paper. That cannot be right.

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/Community/viewtopic.aspx?p=147145#msg147145

The poll is for ALL members, that includes clubs, regional councils and so on.  So a person may get one polling paper as an individual member of BCA and a second one as the contact point for the club.  I note a later posting by SimonRL on your link clearly identifies his two polling papers were sufficiently well addressed to clearly distinguish between the two roles.  (I have had an email from one person who has had 4 polling papers.  He was able to clarify the difference between them.)

Can you explain how the system works? How are the different votes weighted?

 

[Bottlebank]

Looks like one vote per member and one per club:

"All Full Members can vote at BCA General Meetings and can take part in postal ballots. DIMs & CIMs have a vote in BCA's House of Individuals, whilst clubs have a vote in the House of Groups. Individual BCRA members and BCRA Member Clubs receive a vote at BCRA General Meetings and can take part in BCRA postal ballots "

http://caves.org.uk/payments/bca/forms/D1.html

I'm assuming "BCRA" rather than "BCA" is an error, or maybe not?

Actually re reading that it's a bit vague.

 

[Peter Burgess]

In an ideal world, the BCA and the regional councils would dance to the members' tunes, not the other way around.

 

[cavermark]

Is dancing allowed under CROW?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Can you explain how the system works? How are the different votes weighted?

I sincerely hope the votes are not weighted. Given the laxity with which the collective opinions of clubs has been sought (given that canvassing for properly informed opinions around a club takes time and effort), any weighting in favour of the clubs' votes has a very serious potential to distort the result, in several ways, depending on what form the weighting took.

 

[Bob Mehew]

Is dancing allowed under CROW?

I am sorry but I cannot resist giving a longer answer than needed.  Any activity which come within the definition of open air recreation is permitted unless it has been specifically prohibited.  I did write one document which included dancing as an example of such an open air recreation.  But playing loud music may be considered to disturb others which is prohibited.  (There are other Acts which prohibit holding raves etc however.)  So yes you can dance and possibly even to quite music.

 

[Bob Mehew]

Can you explain how the system works? How are the different votes weighted?

The specific topic was not discussed at Council but recognised later on.  I presume the BCA Exec have made a decision.  Perhaps Damian will clarify in due course.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Can you explain how the system works? How are the different votes weighted?

The specific topic was not discussed at Council but recognised later on.  I presume the BCA Exec have made a decision.  Perhaps Damian will clarify in due course.

I can't see that the CNCC can decide how to vote before the 18th. Why was it not made known that regions and clubs had a vote?

 

[Peter Burgess]

I can see the issue of Union Block Votes looming over the horizon. Someone please tell me it's a bad dream!

 

[damian]

The poll is a poll of all BCA members*. Each member*, whether an individual or group, should receive a voting paper and each voting paper is identical and worth 1 vote. There were something over 6,000 papers distributed.

*The only exception here is Associate Members who are clearly defined as not being entitled to a vote.

I can't see that the CNCC can decide how to vote before the 18th. Why was it not made known that regions and clubs had a vote?

I did try to advertise the fact that all BCA members had a vote. I accept it is going to be very difficult for many Group members to canvas members, but it was surely fairer to give them to opportunity to try.

Damian Weare
BCA Secretary

 

[Simon Wilson]

The poll is a poll of all BCA members*. Each member*, whether an individual or group, should receive a voting paper and each voting paper is identical and worth 1 vote. There were something over 6,000 papers distributed.

*The only exception here is Associate Members who are clearly defined as not being entitled to a vote.

I can't see that the CNCC can decide how to vote before the 18th. Why was it not made known that regions and clubs had a vote?

I did try to advertise the fact that all BCA members had a vote. I accept it is going to be very difficult for many Group members to canvas members, but it was surely fairer to give them to opportunity to try.

Damian Weare
BCA Secretary

Can we be absolutely clear? The CNCC vote is worth one vote and has exactly the same weight as my one individual vote - correct?

 

[damian]

Can we be absolutely clear? The CNCC vote is worth one vote and has exactly the same weight as my one individual vote - correct?

Correct.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Can we be absolutely clear? The CNCC vote is worth one vote and has exactly the same weight as my one individual vote - correct?

Correct.

I will be insisting that the CNCC hold an Extraordinary General Meeting within the next two weeks.

No seven days............. hang on I'd better just have a look at the constitution.

I'll get back to you................

 

[Peter Burgess]

Thank you, Damian. It was just a bad dream after all.

 

[Space Kadet]

Hello,

I'm a southern caver and I'm voting No for the following reasons.

1, Southern caves have gates on them and if you remove them then the caves will be open to vandalism malicious or otherwise - the cave doors must stay on and locked for the good of the caves.

2, You remove the door to a gated cave.  Now along comes little johnny with his family for a walk in the country and he falls down the hole - you can guess the rest.  Once a cave is gated a precedent has been set and that cave must say locked - forget the right of access - it must stay locked for the safety of the public and for the conservation of the cave.

3, No landowner is going to allow digging and open themselves up to liability.

4, What about internal gates and barriers protecting irreplaceable formations - who are we are we allow them to be damaged or destroyed so future generations cannot see them.  With open access this will happen.

5, Just because we have the right doesn't mean it is right! Landowners will close caves when caver's start to dictate "I am going down that cave I have the right"  Does the BCRA have the money to take multiple landowners to court to force them to open their caves.

6, CROW access doesn't count if the cave entrance is near an agricultural building which could simply be a sheep pen.  Landowners have only to erect  a simply structures near cave entrances for our rights to vanish.

7, What about the rights of the bats and other protected animals living in the caves?

Many will not agree with my views but we all have to think of the big picture.  We all have to think what is best for caving all over the country - not just in the north - a vote yes will damage caving.  It is better to stomach limited access even though the have the right for full access for the good of caving as a whole.   

 

 

[Simon Wilson]

Two gated caves on access land in the South. Over a thousand caves on access land in the North, many of which have no access agreement at all.

 

[Space Kadet]

There is far more than two.  And even if there were only two, they would still have to be locked to protect them - this is not a numbers game

 

[Alex]

1, Southern caves have gates on them and if you remove them then the caves will be open to vandalism malicious or otherwise - the cave doors must stay on and locked for the good of the caves.

If you read the act there is provision to protect places of special scientific interest. So gates won't be removed.

2, You remove the door to a gated cave.  Now along comes little johnny with his family for a walk in the country and he falls down the hole - you can guess the rest.  Once a cave is gated a precedent has been set and that cave must say locked - forget the right of access - it must stay locked for the safety of the public and for the conservation of the cave.

See 1, likely gate will remain.

3, No landowner is going to allow digging and open themselves up to liability.

Landowners will be no more liable then they are now.

4, What about internal gates and barriers protecting irreplaceable formations - who are we are we allow them to be damaged or destroyed so future generations cannot see them.  With open access this will happen.

See 1.

5, Just because we have the right doesn't mean it is right! Landowners will close caves when caver's start to dictate "I am going down that cave I have the right"  Does the BCRA have the money to take multiple landowners to court to force them to open their caves.

We won't need to dictate, in general provided we phase it in, rather then demanding it but saying that demanding access is what brought about open access in the first place. If it was not for those trouble makers in the early days, we won't have access to most mountains etc.

6, CROW access doesn't count if the cave entrance is near an agricultural building which could simply be a sheep pen.  Landowners have only to erect  a simply structures near cave entrances for our rights to vanish.

I really doubt any land owner would bother going to the trouble or the cost.

7, What about the rights of the bats and other protected animals living in the caves?

I think the act can protect these too, notice on the maps how there is small areas in open access lands that are not open access, that's to protect the species there.

In summary everyone wins with CROW.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Space Kadet would do well to heed the considered advice of the Council that represents interests in Somerset, assuming SK is a member of a CSCC club, of course. They have had plenty of time to think through what the implications are for the region. If BCA wouldn't present the case either way, then the next best thing is for CSCC to do it. Why would they propose doing anything against the interests of the cavers they represent?

 

[Bob Mehew]

7, What about the rights of the bats and other protected animals living in the caves?

I think the act can protect these too, notice on the maps how there is small areas in open access lands that are not open access, that's to protect the species there.

I endorse Alex's response on 1 to 6 but would add the following re 7. 

CRoW does not directly provide such protection.  Crudely put, the first half of the Wildlife and Countryside Act of 1981 provides for the protection of certain species, notably bats when considering caves.  The second half of the act provides for making a place, be it field, wood or even a cave, a SSSI and placing a requirement to get a consent to undertake certain 'operations' (a word used in a very general way to cover all sorts of activities).  These 'operations' are then defined so as to ensure the species or for that matter other features such as stall or sediments are protected.  That protection already covers all caves scheduled by a SSSI.  CRoW applying to caves will not affect that protection.