Ladders

[Les W]

There is a whole chapter on different ways of making ladders in the old CRG "Manual of Caving Techniques" book, but the only two methods that ever caught on were the "pin and araldite method" that ttexla describes and the "crimped ferrule" method that we used to use. It must be 25 years since we've made our own ladders, though.

Wessex use the pin and araldite method but also use the "taper pin" method.  Mostly because we have a large stock of taper pins and thick walled rungs. Taper pin ladders are really quick to make and as a bonus you can re-use the rungs and pins if a ladder gets damaged.

We also have a 22 Ton (imperial) hydraulic press to crimp our own ends. We have dies for 3.5 and 4.5mm wire. We also use "C" links which we manufacture ourselves. It is very cheap to manufacture ladders in this way and the ladders are every bit as good as proprietary ones.

 

[graham]

You still make your own Les.

Good on you.

 

[Pitlamp]

Have just seen ttxela's most informative post above on ladder making, along with all those useful photographs. I wish certain other folk would take the trouble to post things so well though out and helpful.

Two small points; the unravelling of the ends of the wire can be prevented by tinning with solder then gently fining them to give a chamfer (so they don't need trimming back - and it saves all that swearing when it punctures your finger for the umpteenth time).

Secondly, why no C-links? This is the accepted cavers' method of connecting ladders together (despite the interference of the safety nazis several years ago) and works far better in muddy or icy situations or with gloved hands. C-links are perfectly strong enough for normal caving use, cost a fraction of alternative methods and can't be misplaced at pitch heads.

Excellent post though.

 

[graham]

I have to agree with Pitlamp about c-links, as well. The simplest and easiest system of joining ladders and, if properly made, perfectly strong enough for the job.

 

[Aubrey]

You still make your own Les.

Good on you.

Its our wonderful tackle officer (Tommo) who makes the ladders. He also makes special made to measure lengths for digs & we just trade the old ladder in for a longer one as and when the dig gets deeper - Beat that for dedication!   

 

[graham]

You still make your own Les.

Good on you.

Its our wonderful tackle officer (Tommo) who makes the ladders. He also makes special made to measure lengths for digs & we just trade the old ladder in for a longer one as and when the dig gets deeper - Beat that for dedication!   

:bow: :bow: :bow:

 

[ttxela]

Have just seen ttxela's most informative post above on ladder making, along with all those useful photographs. I wish certain other folk would take the trouble to post things so well though out and helpful.

Two small points; the unravelling of the ends of the wire can be prevented by tinning with solder then gently fining them to give a chamfer (so they don't need trimming back - and it saves all that swearing when it punctures your finger for the umpteenth time).

Secondly, why no C-links? This is the accepted cavers' method of connecting ladders together (despite the interference of the safety nazis several years ago) and works far better in muddy or icy situations or with gloved hands. C-links are perfectly strong enough for normal caving use, cost a fraction of alternative methods and can't be misplaced at pitch heads.

Excellent post though.

Unravelling of the ends of the wire was definitely the main problem. Trying to push a 4mm wire through a 4.2mm hole is no fun when it's all started to unravel. Tinning the wire and filing was suggested on the WCMS forum. I did attempt this but the wire I used is fibre cored (cue another discussion on the merits of fibre cored wire  ) and the oil from this made it difficult to tin the ends, bakers fluid was suggested but I never got round to getting any, having achieved the necessary threading by a combination of frantic jabbing and profanity.

There was also a concern that a flame would affect the wire although I had plenty to trim off the ends so that may have been less of a problem.

I did consider C links and even made some. However maillons just seemed better in the end. The intention was to have a ladder I could not only use underground but rig up at home occasionally for a bit of practice as I don?t get to go underground often enough and always make a mess of climbing ladders when I do.

 

[IanWalker]

Great post, thanks

 

[ianball11]

Excellent stuff, I hope it lasts for ages.

 

[ttxela]

Wessex use the pin and araldite method but also use the "taper pin" method. 

Could you expand on what the "taper-pin" method involves please Les?

 

[zomjon]

Alex, I just want to know what you think your cost was in the end? And very glad to hear that you're practicing your ladder climbing!

 

[paul]

Good stuff Alex! We (Orpheus) also have made our own ladders in the past and still have the gear to do so. We have a large quantity of ladders already made so haven't had to make any for quite a few years...

It's a pity you can't make your own SRT rope...

 

[Peter Burgess]

We can't wait to get it all muddy for him.

 

[Pitlamp]

Hang on a minute - you mentioned that the wire is "fibre cored". What exactly does this mean; is this like the old hemp cored wire cable? If it is then you need to be very very careful. Hemp cored wire was more or less outlawed for ladder construction in the late 1960s when a ladder broke on Colin Green in the Kingsdale Master Cave. He fell, suffered serious spinal injuries and spent the rest of his life in a wheelchair until he sadly died recently.

I'm not 100% certain but I think that problem may have been to do with the swaging at the ladder ends. If the swage is fitted correctly but the hemp core then rots the swage becomes loose then it fails. There will probably be something about this in one of the issues of the old Speleologist magazine. I don't have any to hand as I type (Graham - can you help here?).

I suspect that you know a lot more about engineering than I do ttxela - but I thought I'd better mention this problem, just in case . . . . .

 

[Les W]

Wessex use the pin and araldite method but also use the "taper pin" method. 

Could you expand on what the "taper-pin" method involves please Les?

Taper pins require thick walled aluminium tube and steel pins that are smaller than the hole in the end of the tube and also... wait for it ...tapered towards one end. 
You drill the rungs in the same way, thread the wire through and then hammer (or press) the taper pins into the ends so that they trap (and kink) the wire against one side of the tube. this is very strong and does not need araldite or pins through the wire. The taper pins must be carefully sized so that they are an interference fit alongside the wire. With a jig for spacing and two hammers you can manufacture ladders very quickly. If a ladder is damaged then you can punch the pins through past the wire and normally retrieve both the rungs and pins for re-use.

I  hope this explains it as I don't have any photos.

 

[Les W]

On another note, whilst we won't crimp your ends (liabilities, etc.) I believe our tackle officer will be only too happy for you to do it (with lots of helpful advice) if you buy the bits for the ends (thimbles, swages, C links, etc.

DIY ladders are very cheap and are no different to the ones in the shops, that are made by the same methods anyway.

In a club like the Wessex we can keep well ahead of ladder usage (I think we currently have around 30 ladders in service) and as Aubrey has indicated, construct specialist ladders to length as required.
We make our own "20 foot" ladders that have their own built in spreader and use thicker wire (most used so much stronger). If we had to buy ladders they would cost us ?1000's.

 

[graham]

Pitlamp

This off the top of my head; if I get a chance I'll check out the Speleologist, later. In the 1970s we had a supply of hemp-cored wire acquired in error. The problem with using it, as I recall, was that in caving conditions the hemp rotted out thus seriously weakening the whole structure, not just the swaged ends. We thus soaked the whole lot in lanolin. The hemp preferentially absorbs the lanolin, stays dry and lasts much longer. It was much nicer to handle than wire-cored stuff as well. I do not remember how long we kept them in service but it was nowhere near as long as normal. Even though it had been properly treated we never felt happy using it.

 

[ttxela]

Alex, I just want to know what you think your cost was in the end? And very glad to hear that you're practicing your ladder climbing!

Hello Jon

The following is cut an pasted from the WCMS forum;

?12.88 on aluminium tube
?15.27 on wire rope
?5.80 on resin
?1.00 on pins

and to be added

?5.80 for second resin cartridge
?11.50 for the ropeworks to splice in the thimbles

So in all a total of ?52.25

I also spent a little on drill bits and the like but I'm not counting that as I could potentially use them again.

I can get a 5m ladder for ?79.99 so a saving of ?27.74 not exactly spectacular savings but it's been an interesting exercise. It's taken me slightly over a year but the actual bench time was very little, I didn't keep track but I'd estimate 5 hours could see another one finished now everything is in place.

The ladder is 5.29m long overall (17.3')


I had to buy a spreader and the maillons as well but you have to buy them as extras anyway.

I need to get up to the Peak again soon but I'm expecting to move house soon which is taking alot of time at the moment.

 

[ttxela]

Good stuff Alex! We (Orpheus) also have made our own ladders in the past and still have the gear to do so. We have a large quantity of ladders already made so haven't had to make any for quite a few years...

It's a pity you can't make your own SRT rope...

Now there's a thought, there must be some instructions on the internet somewhere.... :-\     

 

[ttxela]

We can't wait to get it all muddy for him.

Will you be bringing some mud to the AGM?