Ladders

[Les W]

I had to buy a spreader and the maillons as well but you have to buy them as extras anyway.

We also make our own spreaders and tethers. 

 

[ttxela]

Hang on a minute - you mentioned that the wire is "fibre cored". What exactly does this mean; is this like the old hemp cored wire cable? If it is then you need to be very very careful. Hemp cored wire was more or less outlawed for ladder construction in the late 1960s when a ladder broke on Colin Green in the Kingsdale Master Cave. He fell, suffered serious spinal injuries and spent the rest of his life in a wheelchair until he sadly died recently.

I'm not 100% certain but I think that problem may have been to do with the swaging at the ladder ends. If the swage is fitted correctly but the hemp core then rots the swage becomes loose then it fails. There will probably be something about this in one of the issues of the old Speleologist magazine. I don't have any to hand as I type (Graham - can you help here?).

I suspect that you know a lot more about engineering than I do ttxela - but I thought I'd better mention this problem, just in case . . . . .

Thanks for the warning 

I'm not really an engineer, more of a "jack of all trades"  :-[

Some thought did go into the selection of the wire and the CPC instructions do specify a steel centre strand but none was available locally. I read several documents with differing opinions on fibre cores but chose to believe the ones that said it was OK as that's what I could lay my hands on 

 

[ttxela]

On another note, whilst we won't crimp your ends (liabilities, etc.) I believe our tackle officer will be only too happy for you to do it (with lots of helpful advice) if you buy the bits for the ends (thimbles, swages, C links, etc.

DIY ladders are very cheap and are no different to the ones in the shops, that are made by the same methods anyway.

In a club like the Wessex we can keep well ahead of ladder usage (I think we currently have around 30 ladders in service) and as Aubrey has indicated, construct specialist ladders to length as required.
We make our own "20 foot" ladders that have their own built in spreader and use thicker wire (most used so much stronger). If we had to buy ladders they would cost us ?1000's.

Thanks for the explanation and the kind offer, sadly I'm rather a long way from the Wessex in Cambridge 

 

[Peter Burgess]

We can't wait to get it all muddy for him.

Will you be bringing some mud to the AGM?

Could do. Imagine the "show and tell" session.

Here's Alex to tell us about his lovely shiny ladder that he's spent months making.
And here's Peter with a bucket of mud from the garden.

Not much of a competition for the prize, I think.  :doubt:

 

[ttxela]

Pitlamp

This off the top of my head; if I get a chance I'll check out the Speleologist, later. In the 1970s we had a supply of hemp-cored wire acquired in error. The problem with using it, as I recall, was that in caving conditions the hemp rotted out thus seriously weakening the whole structure, not just the swaged ends. We thus soaked the whole lot in lanolin. The hemp preferentially absorbs the lanolin, stays dry and lasts much longer. It was much nicer to handle than wire-cored stuff as well. I do not remember how long we kept them in service but it was nowhere near as long as normal. Even though it had been properly treated we never felt happy using it.

I'm not convinced the fibre core is hemp nowadays, probably something synthetic and rot proof (hopefully). Graham C has already advised me to treat the wires with wool fat.

I'm a bit of a stickler for being lifelined in any case given my ineptitude at climbing the things (hence the desire for one to practice with)

 

[Peter Burgess]

You are not thinking of making your own ropes too, are you? Do you have any wire left? If you stick it in a flame, you'd know if it was artificial or hemp by the way it melted or burned wouldn't you?

 

[ttxela]

A quick google and I think the core is more likely polypropylene. It didn't really look like hemp.... :doubt:

 

[ttxela]

You are not thinking of making your own ropes too, are you? Do you have any wire left? If you stick it in a flame, you'd know if it was artificial or hemp by the way it melted or burned wouldn't you?

I thought I had some offcuts but they seem to have disappeared 

Probably won't try and make my own rope, I suspect it requires some special tools.

I do have some old cotton reels though so might have a go at making my own stop. 

 

[Les W]

sadly I'm rather a long way from the Wessex in Cambridge 

I'm sure you must visit Mendip now and again. :-\ If only to remember where the spiritual home of caving is. 

 

[martinr]

A quick google and I think the core is more likely polypropylene. It didn't really look like hemp.... :doubt:

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=hemp&word2=polypropylene

 

[ttxela]

sadly I'm rather a long way from the Wessex in Cambridge 

I'm sure you must visit Mendip now and again. :-\ If only to remember where the spiritual home of caving is. 

Only been once I'm afraid, but I did stay at the Wessex 

I think I'm missing out on a WCMS Mendip trip this weekend 

 

[graham]

Pitlamp

I've checked Speleologist back to the discovery of KMC and haven't found any mention of that incident. I'll try the first few Descents tomorrow, if I get the time.

 

[shotlighter]

Hang on a minute - you mentioned that the wire is "fibre cored". What exactly does this mean; is this like the old hemp cored wire cable? If it is then you need to be very very careful. Hemp cored wire was more or less outlawed for ladder construction in the late 1960s when a ladder broke on Colin Green in the Kingsdale Master Cave. He fell, suffered serious spinal injuries and spent the rest of his life in a wheelchair until he sadly died recently.

I'm not 100% certain but I think that problem may have been to do with the swaging at the ladder ends. If the swage is fitted correctly but the hemp core then rots the swage becomes loose then it fails. There will probably be something about this in one of the issues of the old Speleologist magazine. I don't have any to hand as I type (Graham - can you help here?).

I suspect that you know a lot more about engineering than I do ttxela - but I thought I'd better mention this problem, just in case . . . . .

There's an x-ray of the failed swage on page 91 of Race Against Time.

 

[Pitlamp]

THAT's where I saw a copy of the X-ray; thanks Shotlighter. I have a feeling the original large X-ray film is somewhere in the 'Pennine library (not currently easily accessible). There are plenty of people around in the NPC who remember Colin Green's terrible accident. There's a good chance I might be out for a beer or three tomorrow with some of them, in which case I'll ask. If I learn anything useful I'll post further on here.

I'm pretty sure the problem was caused by rotting of the hemp so if you've used a synthetic cored wire rope it hopefully shouldn't suffer the same.

What's all this stuff about Muddip being the "spiritual home" of caving Les? I think you'll find that not everyone agrees - but at least it's a bit more plausible than your usual claim! (Actually I have to confess I'm very fond of Mendip.)

 

[Les W]

What's all this stuff about Muddip being the "spiritual home" of caving Les? I think you'll find that not everyone agrees

But John, I never claimed that "Mendip" was the spiritual home of caving, just that the spiritual home was on Mendip. 

but at least it's a bit more plausible than your usual claim!

There's no point in arguing when the facts speak for themselves. 

By the way, it looks like the deepest cave in Britain is also on (in) Mendip. 

(Actually I have to confess I'm very fond of Mendip.)

 

 

[graham]

By the way, it looks like the deepest cave in Britain is also on (in) Mendip. 

I have to say I am quite looking forward to seeing just how you'll justify that one.

 

[paul]

By the way, it looks like the deepest cave in Britain is also on (in) Mendip. 

Perhaps another entrance has been dug in Mendip leading to OFD?


I have to say I am quite looking forward to seeing just how you'll justify that one.

 

[Les W]

By the way, it looks like the deepest cave in Britain is also on (in) Mendip. 

I have to say I am quite looking forward to seeing just how you'll justify that one.

It all depends on how you measure. If it's highest point to lowest point (The most common measurement) then Charterhouse entrance (256m) to the bottom of Gough's (4m below sea level at the bottom of the downstream sump is 260m vertical range. Sump 3 is 55m deep but I don't know how much higher the river is at this point. Assuming the water is pretty much level with the resurgence then this makes the bottom of Gough's about 29m below sea level. This makes the realistic prospective depth some 311m. Wigmore Swallet has an altitude of 265m which could bring another 9m to this depth but the prospect of a connection is much less hopeful (but never say never). The deepest cave in the UK currently (OFD) is around the 900 foot mark (approx 275m) so all that is needed is to join Charterhouse to Gough's (a much more realistic possibility now) to be the deepest cave in the UK.

How's that Graham? 

 

[graham]

How's that Graham? 

Les, speaking as a fellow Mendipite, I suggest that you take a quick look at the Survex 3D model of the Castleton area that Moose maintains. Even a cursory look at that will show you that Mountbatten Pot to the bottom of Deep Rising - or wherever his deepest point in Speedwell/peak is - is 309 m. That area, I would contend, is a far more likely prospect for the first 300 m deep cave in the UK.

 

[whitelackington]

By the way, it looks like the deepest cave in Britain is also on (in) Mendip. 

I have to say I am quite looking forward to seeing just how you'll justify that one.

It all depends on how you measure. If it's highest point to lowest point (The most common measurement) then Charterhouse entrance (256m) to the bottom of Gough's (4m below sea level at the bottom of the downstream sump is 260m vertical range. Sump 3 is 55m deep but I don't know how much higher the river is at this point. Assuming the water is pretty much level with the resurgence then this makes the bottom of Gough's about 29m below sea level. This makes the realistic prospective depth some 311m. Wigmore Swallet has an altitude of 265m which could bring another 9m to this depth but the prospect of a connection is much less hopeful (but never say never). The deepest cave in the UK currently (OFD) is around the 900 foot mark (approx 275m) so all that is needed is to join Charterhouse to Gough's (a much more realistic possibility now) to be the deepest cave in the UK.

How's that Graham? 

I think it might be more realistic to say
that there is a good chance that one day a cave diver might enter Gough's Cave,
drop down to the bottom of the deepest phreatic loop then cave their way up stream and through in to Charterhouse / G.B.
and out Charterhouse Cave Entrance.
This would then be the deepest caveable cave in ENGLAND.