Mossdale-Black Keld

[stevejw]

Also see survey on Cave Mapper. As foot and mouth is now some time ago a sensible approach to the various parties should be feasible.

 

[langcliffe]

Before anyone gets carried away, do note  that Grassington Moor is a scheduled monument (National Monument 31331), and is monitored by the YDNP. The gamekeeper is also an extremely stroppy character.

 

[stevejw]

Yes consideration of all the issues, carefully planning, and a coordinated approach to all the parties concerned will be essential.

 

[Pitlamp]

This was exactly what was done at the Titan dig. You can't start a dig like that without first obtaining the blessing of all interested parties. Designation as a National Monument, or an SSSI, doesn't mean you can't dig there. It just means that a certain procedure has to be followed to gain permission.

Braveduck - I don't remember that conversation; I've always thought that the lost caverns would be an excellent project to get stuck into.

Langcliffe - you're pretty much on the spot aren't you? Can you advise about land ownership? Or investigate?

 

[langcliffe]

Langcliffe - you're pretty much on the spot aren't you? Can you advise about land ownership? Or investigate?

I think that it is owned either by the freeholders of Grassington or by the gateholders of the moor. The Duke of Devonshire tried to sell it about 20 years ago, and Keith Lockyer et alia took him to court to show that he did not actually have ownership.

The Duke of Devonshire owns the mineral rights; I believe that the chap in Conistone owns the shooting rights; and a number of farmers own the grazing rights. It is also a scheduled monument. The gamekeeper is very active on the moor (there are more nasty traps up there than you can poke a stick into).

The mines are fenced off by the National Park authorities - possibly because there is no single owner.

It's all a bit complex...

 

[robjones]

Might be useful to know that underground voids resulting from the extraction of minerals, or the excavation of tunnels to gain access to minerals, remain in the ownership of the mineral landlord - various case law precidents.

 

[Pitlamp]

Braveduck has kindly sent me some information by PM whilst I was out caving today. I tend to agree with him about the best shaft to go for - having also just looked at the NMRS monograph on the Grassington Moor Mines by Mike Gill. But does anyone think there would be a better option?

I think it's important that we're absolutely certain there is agreement on the best site of any dig before any approach is made to the various people / organisations to explore possibilities for getting permission. Has anyone got any other ideas for dig sites to suggest?

It does seem that obtaining proper permission might be a daunting task but the only thing which is certain is that if we don't pursue this we definitely won't get permission. If we were to try and fail, at least we'd have no regrets!

 

[langcliffe]

I think it's important that Has anyone got any other ideas for dig sites to suggest?

My understanding is that the caverns were originally accessed from Old Turf Pits at a depth of about 80 m, along about 60 m of level. The levels were driven through limestone so stand a chance of being intact, but the shaft is now totally run in. The mine was abandoned in 1869.

I do not believe that the nearby West Turf Pits and Whim Shaft had any levels connecting with the Old Turf Pits levels, as my information indicates that their levels were at the 60 m depth.

However, I do have a cross section that shows another shaft that was driven down towards the cavern on Cavern Vein. The same cross-section shows a rise dug upwards from the cave. On the cross-section there is a gap of  about 12 metres, and I don't know whether they ever met. If the two do coincide, then it seems to correspond to a shaft more-or-less above the main branch of the cave about 10 metres west of the track, and 40 metres north of Old Turf Pits. If I remember correctly, it is currently full of water.

In 1965, the NCRMS found an open shaft between Turf Pits and Old Turf Pits, which they reckoned could have been a climbing way into the Turf Pits workings.  They descended this to a depth of about 15 metres in two stages before meeting a collapsed passage. I haven't identified this shaft.

I should be up there later this week, weather permitting, looking for an unrecorded meer stone that has been reported to me. If so, I'll check that locality.

 

[Hasbeen caver]

This is a fascinating thread! (even for a hasbeen caver like me).

Coincidentally, last autumn I cycled up from Conistone on a bleak wet day, accompanied by someone who works for YDNP and has a good knowledge of land ownership in the area.  We went for a look at Mossdale, which I hadn't seen before.  It looked spooky and forbidding with dark peaty floodwater sinking beneath the chaotic cliff...

We then returned back down the track, before following the very prominent, well established track which leads over to over to the Peak High Pasture and the area of old mineworkings.  (By the way, has anyone else noticed how this linking track is completely missing from the OS 1:25,000 South Yorkshire Dales map? - or at least it isn't shown on my 1988 edition).

Inputting the grid reference given further up the thread into the "Get me a map" facility on the OS website indicates that it is this area of mineworkings which is now being discussed.

Interestingly my friend explained on the day that the ownership of that area was contentious, and that there had been a court case involving the Duke of Westminster (as Langcliffe said).

What I wasn't aware of was the stories of these mineworkings intersecting natural passage, which lots of the posts refer to.  I would be really interested if someone could post some more information on this.

Is it assumed that the mines intersected the Mossdale streamway further down its course, and how does the location of these mines fit with the orientation of the existing cave?  The mines seem quite a way south of the entrance to Mossdale, yet Black Keld is many miles to the North.

Any further information in advance of what could be a major collaborative effort to rediscover a potentially alpine scale cave, would be most welcome!

Thanks

 

[Northern caver]

Echo the above post by Hasbeen, would very much like to know more. Very intriguing indeed.

 

[langcliffe]

Inputting the grid reference given further up the thread into the "Get me a map" facility on the OS website indicates that it is this area of mineworkings which is now being discussed.

The area under discussion is here: http://alturl.com/eihq

 

[langcliffe]

Interestingly my friend explained on the day that the ownership of that area was contentious, and that there had been a court case involving the Duke of Westminster (as Langcliffe said).

In my defence, I would like to point out that I said it was the Duke of Devonshire.

 

[ronaldjprice]

More info would be great if possible, please

 

[Hasbeen caver]

Interestingly my friend explained on the day that the ownership of that area was contentious, and that there had been a court case involving the Duke of Westminster (as Langcliffe said).

In my defence, I would like to point out that I said it was the Duke of Devonshire.

Sorry Langcliffe - my mistake!  I typed my post late last night and didn't re-read the thread at the time.

In fact, my memory of the conversation with my friend that day was more that the ownership of the land was not properly established and that there had been a court case involving one Duke or another...!  I remember it seemed strange to me (as we whizzed down through the old mineworkings) that ownership of such a huge tract of land should be disputed in the 21st Century.

Thank you for the link to the google map - that certainly confirms the shaft in question very clearly.  Incidentally, if you click on the google map and drag the image, you can follow the very prominent track adjacent to the Old Turf Pits, right back to the Mossdale  Valley.  Mossdale Caverns is just upstream of the junction where that track meets the one coming up from Consistone.

And given just how prominent the linking track is (as very clearly shown on the google map) does anyone else find it bizarre that it is missing completely from my 1988 1.25,000 Yorkshire Dales South OS map?  (not checked whether it appears on the current edition).  It certainly seemed more than a little odd to me!

Finally, given that the whole area around the Old Turf Pits is very much a post industrial landscape, with old spoil heaps and roadways everywhere, then surely some of the arguments which might discourage digging cavers from heaping the arisings from a surface dig within pristine countryside, might not apply here?

Good luck with trying to secure the relevant permissions, and if anyone can shed any more light on the particular myths / records of mineworkings intersecting natural passage hereabouts, then I would be really interested to read them.

Cheers

 

[langcliffe]

And given just how prominent the linking track is (as very clearly shown on the google map) does anyone else find it bizarre that it is missing completely from my 1988 1.25,000 Yorkshire Dales South OS map?  (not checked whether it appears on the current edition).  It certainly seemed more than a little odd to me!

Not really - it was built in the 1980s. It is on the current edition.

Finally, given that the whole area around the Old Turf Pits is very much a post industrial landscape, with old spoil heaps and roadways everywhere, then surely some of the arguments which might discourage digging cavers from heaping the arisings from a surface dig within pristine countryside, might not apply here?

The industrial landscape is why it is a scheduled monument (National Monument 31331). They want to preserve the industrial archaeology, not for it to be torn asunder by people.

 

[Hasbeen caver]

And given just how prominent the linking track is (as very clearly shown on the google map) does anyone else find it bizarre that it is missing completely from my 1988 1.25,000 Yorkshire Dales South OS map?  (not checked whether it appears on the current edition).  It certainly seemed more than a little odd to me!

Not really - it was built in the 1980s. It is on the current edition.

Ah, that explains it!  I hadn't realised the track was so (relatively) new.

Thank you Langcliffe

Finally, given that the whole area around the Old Turf Pits is very much a post industrial landscape, with old spoil heaps and roadways everywhere, then surely some of the arguments which might discourage digging cavers from heaping the arisings from a surface dig within pristine countryside, might not apply here?

The industrial landscape is why it is a scheduled monument (National Monument 31331). They want to preserve the industrial archaeology, not for it to be torn asunder by people.

Well I am certainly sympathetic with preserving the industrial archaeology.  From what I saw, there is much of value and interest on that hillside, and on down into the Gill leading to Hebden.

I suppose what I was thinking was more on the lines of "one more spoil heap on a hillside already littered with them, might not be considered too controversial"?

But perhaps I am being too optimistic!

Cheers

 

[braveduck]

Langcliff if you look at cave mappers plan of the lost caverns.
Your plan of Old Turf Pits puts it  to far North.
I think it is the shaft SW of the Left hand track.
That fits really well with plans I have,because the is an X cut to the rise in to the caverns.

 

[langcliffe]

Langcliff if you look at cave mappers plan of the lost caverns.
Your plan of Old Turf Pits puts it  to far North.
I think it is the shaft SW of the Left hand track.
That fits really well with plans I have,because the is an X cut to the rise in to the caverns.

You may well be right, but I refer you to the map on page 74 of Mike Gill's monograph "The Grassington Mines", and the NGR reference given for Old Turf Pits and others in  British Mining No. 13 "The Mines of Grassington Moor". According to those references, my positions for the three shafts are correct.

I overlaid the survey on Google Earth a couple of years ago, and it fits a treat with the shafts where I have them positioned.

 

[braveduck]

If any of those shafts /hollows in that area have a draft they are worth investigating further.
Beyond that a meeting with any plans that anybody has, then begin the process of permissions.

 

[nickwilliams]

Interestingly my friend explained on the day that the ownership of that area was contentious, and that there had been a court case involving the Duke of Westminster (as Langcliffe said).

In my defence, I would like to point out that I said it was the Duke of Devonshire.

Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious here, but of course DCA already have experience of negotiating with the Chatsworth Estate for access to caves.

Nick.