Mossdale-Black Keld

[Pitlamp]

Hasbeen caver - a really useful reference on the mines of this area is the Northern Mine Research Society's British Mining No.46 "The Grassington Mines" by M.C.Gill (May 1993). You can probably still buy this from NMRS. I think they allow access to all their publications online to members. (This is the one I mentioned in a post above.)

Incidentally a "run in" shaft isn't necessarily impossible to reopen. It's easier than going through solid ground but it'd need the right sort of shoring to make it safe. A water filled shaft is even easier to access; a winch and a kibble can be used to bale it out. As long as there's no significant inflow that is . . . . .

National monument designation doesn't mean that a dig can't be done. It just means that how it's done must be agreed in advance with the relevant authorities.

If this project is ever able to be got together we might actually find that the mining history fraternity would be very interested in helping. They would almost certainly bring valuable knowledge and skills - potentially very useful when working on securing permissions.

 

[langcliffe]

Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious here, but of course DCA already have experience of negotiating with the Chatsworth Estate for access to caves.

It's a lot more complicated than that: the DofD only owns the minerals rights. The freehold, grazing rights, and shooting rights are all held by other parties.

I would like to make it clear that whilst I would be very happy to contribute to any digging, I already have irons in the fire on Grassington Moor which I don't want to jeopardise, and would prefer not to get involved in the process of seeking permission. However, I am happy to advise on the parties to approach.

 

[braveduck]

I feel a Kibble coming on!

 

[peterk]

A vote in support of Langcliffe.  I plotted the shafts onto Google earth some time ago and used the NGR's in the BGS Northern Pennines Orefield.  The book is out on loan at the moment.  I also have the shaft west of Old Turf Pits and just before the NW - SE track marked as "Footway" - I don't know where I got that info but they were all plotted in relation to the "lost caverns".  I have a line plotted  running through West Turf Pits  to Whim and continuing SE to Henry's (very large spoil heap) that I've labelled "North Cavern" - I don't think that's the name of a vein but I presume that must be the  line of the vein through the caverns.

 

[Hasbeen caver]

Hasbeen caver - a really useful reference on the mines of this area is the Northern Mine Research Society's British Mining No.46 "The Grassington Mines" by M.C.Gill (May 1993). You can probably still buy this from NMRS. I think they allow access to all their publications online to members. (This is the one I mentioned in a post above.)

Thank you, Pitlamp.

That journal is marked as out of print at the NMRS's website, but I have just managed to order one from a second hand bookshop.

I'll look forward to a good read...!

Cheers

Neil

 

[langcliffe]

I have a line plotted  running through West Turf Pits  to Whim and continuing SE to Henry's (very large spoil heap) that I've labelled "North Cavern" - I don't think that's the name of a vein but I presume that must be the  line of the vein through the caverns.

I believe that North Cavern Vein was followed from West Turf Pits, but finished somewhere above the cavern. Whim Shaft connected to it. A vein on the same line was followed from Old Turf Pits towards and beyond Henry's, where it became known as Slanter Vein.

The naming of the the various veins is complex, and something that I find difficult to get my head round. This is partly due to the veins dividing, descending, and being separated by faults; and partly due to the prospectors being keen to claim that a vein is new, and taking founder's privileges.

 

[stevejw]

Langcliff if you look at cave mappers plan of the lost caverns.
Your plan of Old Turf Pits puts it  to far North.
I think it is the shaft SW of the Left hand track.
That fits really well with plans I have,because the is an X cut to the rise in to the caverns.

See my previous post which gave the grid ref. This corresponds to the shaft you are referring to which is visible on cave mapper surveys, the OS map, and google earth AND here is a picture  of the shaft in question

 

[stevejw]

Here is the view from the fork in the track of (left to right) West Turf Pits, Manway and Old Turf Pits

 

[stevejw]

There is a meer stone visible behind the shaft in question:

 

[langcliffe]

Braveduck

Here is a Google Earth screen snapshot with Raistrick's survey of the Lost Caverns superimposed. The shafts are in the same position as previously shown. I think that's a pretty good match.

P.S.

Having said that, this could be a case of wishful thinking as there a couple of questions. Having looked at it again (I originally did it many months ago), the northing is obviously askew. However, I think that  the orientation is correct as North Cavern Vein is heading straight for Henry's as it should. Of more concern is that if I remember rightly, it isn't possible to guarantee that the height versus length proportions remain the same when scaling the overlay, so I may have inadvertently squished the survey to fit the expectation.

Does anybody else want a go?

 

[stevejw]

Thanks Langcliffe! Now it all makes sense. One for Cave Mapper I think. So Forget south of the track.

Here is Old Turf Pits

.

Do you know anything about the Manway dig, which according to your overlay is just south of Cavern Vein?

 

[langcliffe]

Do you know anything about the Manway dig, which according to your overlay is just south of Cavern Vein?

Sorry - I'm ashamed to say that I had not even heard of it. It doesn't get a mention in any of my books, and more specifically it's not listed in the NMRS list of shafts. It could have been a climbing shaft, although I do not know of any levels in that area. May be it was a trial shaft?

I've re-implemented the overlay having discovered that you can scale it all at the same time (press the shift key!), and it still looks fine.

 

[stevejw]

Is it assumed that the mines intersected the Mossdale streamway further down its course, and how does the location of these mines fit with the orientation of the existing cave?  The mines seem quite a way south of the entrance to Mossdale, yet Black Keld is many miles to the North.

The drop from Middle Limestone through the sandstone layer and then 180 degree change of direction as the system switches direction back to its Black Keld resurgence certainly suggests complexity in this system. Dye testing emphasises this; up to 3 weeks to reach the resurgence! Complexity is added by the higher/older series possibly originally resurging at Cove Scar or elsewhere. There is a really good section on this in Murphy, P.J. (2003), Exploring the Limestone Landscapes of Upper Wharfedale, BCRA Cave Studies Series: 13.

The satellite imagery and overall features it reveals are certainly suggestive when you look at Langcliffe's revised caverns overlay within the context of the wider system including m*ssdale, caverns, fossil, possible original resurgence, and current resurgence.

 

[RobinGriffiths]

Yes, superb thread. Keep it going. Make sure you only find one entrance though 

 

[langcliffe]

Complexity is added by the higher/older series possibly originally resurging at Cove Scar

If you mean Cove Hole, this was intensively dug last year by a combined Bradford University archaeology team and a team put together by the BCRA, which showed that it was a local feature only, with no upstream continuation.

 

[Pitlamp]

Well well, there's some excellent information surfacing as a result of this thread.

One thing to consider if this is to be seriously pursued is funding. It's not possible to do a shaft of this sort of scale without some significant costs. (The sum spent on the Titan job, all out of everyone's pockets, was considerable.) If this lost caverns initiative gets off the ground it would be worth thinking of ways to set up a fighting fund early on in the planning. I mention this just so folks at least bear it in mind. Permission is of course the first obstacle though.

 

[Glenn]

One thing to consider if this is to be seriously pursued is funding. It's not possible to do a shaft of this sort of scale without some significant costs.

CNCC may be able to help with funding.

 

[khakipuce]

Really interesting project and if I had some spare time I would be really keen to get involved.

In the meantime though, I have been knocking together an on screen Survey Digitiser from some bits of code I had lying around and seeing the mapping in this thread prompted me to get my act together and publish an early version, which may be helpful in getting the various bits of mapping on to Google Earth, O/S maps and Survex.

The basic idea is that you can digitise a scanned image on screen using the mouse into a set of coordinates, it allows you to set the scale, orientation and grid points.

If anyone is interested you can get the code from http://www.interestingto.me.uk/survey-digitiser

Here is what it looks like (the red line is the start of digitising the centre line down cavern vein)

 

[braveduck]

The result at Cove Hole was very depressing when we realised it had never been a resurgence!
If you orientate Langcliffs overlay so the the two Norths coincide,I still contend that OldTurf Pitts is on the South side of the side track.
It sticks in my mind from years ago,that people were struggling to line up shafts correctly.
Possably because the first and most definative write up MAY have been wrong and every body has copied it since.
Hows that for a can of worms?

 

[langcliffe]

If you orientate Langcliffs overlay so the the two Norths coincide,I still contend that OldTurf Pitts is on the South side of the side track.

I have just asked Mike Gill to check that the three shafts are located correctly on the Google Map, and he confirmed that they are in the right place. I would venture to suggest  that as the three shafts on the map coincide with the same shafts shafts on Google Map, we have the plan position of the Lost Caverns pinned down pretty well.