New Cave in Ystradfellte ?
- Thread starter Chris Crowley
- Start date
Goydenman
Well-known member
graham said:But I thought that the only people who removed gates in South Wales were honourable types who have only our best interests at heart. :doubt:
Or am I missing something?
A good question for all cavers to consider in this area. Putting aside our strong views so that we can truly hear and get behind what others are saying can uncover win-win options. Sometimes it helps people do that by talking about the same principles in other areas of life they are not arguing over. For instance I have heard a mate talk about canoeists who upset landowners/fisherman by having pirate trips/breaking open gates to get access to rivers etc. Looking at that area of conflict I have noticed that a win-win arrangement has been found in places and the practice is spreading of open access to canoe when the river is in spate. Win win because fishermen/landowners know what is going on; there is a clear agreement; damage stops; fish are conserved and fishermen get to fish without interrruption at the best times for them...but also there is open access user friendly often involves just turning up. The other mechanisms that involve more complicated restrictions and less open access typically suffer from canoeists turning up at night making a noise disturbing people, climbing over walls, and then doing a pirate trip. I believe if we (cavers) see the value of finding access mechanisms that truly provide ese of access, that works for the landowner and conserves what we so enjoy then that will be better for everyone. The mechanism of canoeing rivers in spate has sporead are there mechanism outside wales that work better or do we need to find new ones?
crickleymal
New member
It might be possible to "go public" but it's not a requirement. If the find is on private land then the owner might well have asked for secrecy until access arrangements were sorted. The owner doesn't have to grant access at all. It's their land, they can do what they like. If they want to forbid access then they can do so and who are we to gainsay them?Ship-badger said:
If I found people abusing things on my land I'd be inclined to dump a load of concrete on it and tell them to fck off. Just to be bloody minded.
Goydenman
Well-known member
It might also be possible to go public and ask that people keep away for a period while acess arrangements/digging/making safe is completed. In the interests of cavers I also do not just accept what the landowners say is the end of the things but aim to influence for the sake of the caving community. For example in Nidderdale where I spend most of my time caving one farmer wanted people to call every time to request to cave but we were able to influence him cavers only needed to call if they were not sticking to the access routes to the caves eg Rescue team walking around with radios etc. This means he gets less people calling at the farm which after the agreement was made he admitted he was worried about security and considered trying to reduce the number of cavers coming! He has also demanded that two cave entrances be sealed after talking with him one was left open but Heskin baskets put along the river bank to prevent further erosion. The other entrance was rarely used by cavers and access to the cave underneath was easy by another route was sealed and gained respect to start another dig elsewhere. One of the best thing we ever did was give all the farmers a copy of the survey showing all the caves and enthuse about our project to link them. Now we are in the position of the farmers telling us about possible digs where they have noticed new depressions etc. In short then what landowners say is not the end of the story and we all have to build positive relationships with them at the same time influence them for better access. I have also been influenced by them to appreciate the valley even more and we get involved in mending walls/fencing, giving a donation to the local agricultural show and more.
Rhys
Moderator
An official statement regarding this cave:
http://www.cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk/latest_news.html
"New Cave Find at Ystradfellte - 4th November 2010
The knowledge of a well-decorated new find at Ystradfellte has spread rapidly against the landowners? wishes.
Those few responsible cavers using the site with permission were working with the landowners and hoping to carry out proper scientific study and to arrange for a subsequent access agreement.
However, others have entered the site without permission, carried out criminal damage at the entrance, which matter is now in the hands of the police, and interfered with the landowners? privacy and water supply that originates in the cave.
The result is a complete ban on caving at the site and that the cave will be firmly sealed closed.
We thank the landowners for agreeing to do this in a manner that will not damage the cave so that it will be properly protected and we urge all cavers to respect the laws of property.
We only have access to underground sites with a landowners? permission and landowners may be re-assured that the Cambrian Caving Council, British Caving Association and the British Cave Research Association will always work with them in this matter.
Elsie Little ? 4th November 2010
(CCC & BCA Conservation Officer)"
http://www.cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk/latest_news.html
"New Cave Find at Ystradfellte - 4th November 2010
The knowledge of a well-decorated new find at Ystradfellte has spread rapidly against the landowners? wishes.
Those few responsible cavers using the site with permission were working with the landowners and hoping to carry out proper scientific study and to arrange for a subsequent access agreement.
However, others have entered the site without permission, carried out criminal damage at the entrance, which matter is now in the hands of the police, and interfered with the landowners? privacy and water supply that originates in the cave.
The result is a complete ban on caving at the site and that the cave will be firmly sealed closed.
We thank the landowners for agreeing to do this in a manner that will not damage the cave so that it will be properly protected and we urge all cavers to respect the laws of property.
We only have access to underground sites with a landowners? permission and landowners may be re-assured that the Cambrian Caving Council, British Caving Association and the British Cave Research Association will always work with them in this matter.
Elsie Little ? 4th November 2010
(CCC & BCA Conservation Officer)"
mrodoc
Well-known member
This is quite appalling. Doesn't surprise me. A few years before the internet a friend and I made a major find in Devon. In fact it was the first find for 20 years. We gated it but printed an article in Descent stating a key was available from me. Nobody ever applied and when at last somebody expressed an interest in the site they found the gate had been smashed off. It was only 20 metres of passage but it was not only in a pristine state but quite well decorated and contained small mammal bones in the fossil stream sediments. This cave was right off the beaten track. I don't know if I can bring myself to go and see how it is nowadays.
Whilst it's bad that access has been lost I find this piece of the statement quite bizarre..
Surely the landowner would have known any new cave would attract interest, or at least should have been told this from the outset? News spreads, quite fast these days. So how did it spread, did one of those that had permission open their mouth?
jasonbirder
Member
I'm not commenting on the specifics of this...just access in general...
Us Cavers are extremely unfortunate in that its so easy for Land-owner/controllers to disrupt access to caves by filling/concreting/capping etc...
Canoeists/Climbers don't have to worry about it...as its impossible to permenently destroy a river or a crag (or nearly impossible I guess) so the ultimate sanction isn't a worry for them...
I guess we're also unfortunate here in Britain that as an old and densely populated Island there is very little land which isn't owned or farmed and controlled...
Us Cavers are extremely unfortunate in that its so easy for Land-owner/controllers to disrupt access to caves by filling/concreting/capping etc...
Canoeists/Climbers don't have to worry about it...as its impossible to permenently destroy a river or a crag (or nearly impossible I guess) so the ultimate sanction isn't a worry for them...
I guess we're also unfortunate here in Britain that as an old and densely populated Island there is very little land which isn't owned or farmed and controlled...
Damo
Member
I'd like to make something clear. The land owner was good enough to allow access on their land in the first place, regardless to what anyone else has to say. What has been committed is a criminal offence. The cave, I think will definitely be capped and to be honest I can't blame the landowner! How would anybody else feel if someone came along and ripped their garden gate off, as the entrance was pretty much in their garden! I feel fortunate that I was able to see the cave myself and take a few photo's, now because some likely jealous dickhead can't control his/her opinions on this matter, its spoilt it for us all!
My partner of 15 years is from a farming family, and what I will say is the farming community is a close-knit community. To allow access to their land is through trust and to throw it back in their face is rather insulting. Remember, like I said close-knit community, they talk! Idiots like this are doing us cavers no favours!
Damo.
My partner of 15 years is from a farming family, and what I will say is the farming community is a close-knit community. To allow access to their land is through trust and to throw it back in their face is rather insulting. Remember, like I said close-knit community, they talk! Idiots like this are doing us cavers no favours!
Damo.
And I'm getting pretty cheesed off at being accused of doing something I did not do in a place I could not possibly have been at the time it was done!
Both Mr ****** and Mr ********** can rest assured that their threatening and intimidatory text messages will be passed on to the Police at the earliest opportunity.
Both Mr ****** and Mr ********** can rest assured that their threatening and intimidatory text messages will be passed on to the Police at the earliest opportunity.
Joel Corrigan
New member
Calling the police? Kind of like Fred West complaining to the council that he'd tripped on a loose paving slab! But in all seriousness, if someone invented the Birdy Song then they haven't got any right to whinge if others hate them for it; causing caves to be sealed up is definitely on a par so get over it.
ChrisJC
Well-known member
NigR said:Yeah, fine. Thanks a lot. Tell you what - any more gates go missing, no matter where it is and no matter where I am at the time, then just blame it all on me. Fair enough?ChrisJC said:
Well, it's either you or Tony Oldham :spank: :blink:
Chris.
