New Cave in Ystradfellte ?

[graham]

Shame a gate was thought to be needed at all in the first place, it couldnt have been removed if it wasnt there!

We are told that, amongst other things the guy takes his water supply from the cave.

Do you let all and sundry walk across your back garden or do you have a fence and a gate?

(And for the picky, I have no idea how close it actually is to his property but the principle of not having your stuff disturbed by random strangers who think they've got a god-given right to trample where they please is the same.)

 

[crickleymal]

Shame a gate was thought to be needed at all in the first place, it couldnt have been removed if it wasnt there!

We are told that, amongst other things the guy takes his water supply from the cave.

Do you let all and sundry walk across your back garden or do you have a fence and a gate?

(And for the picky, I have no idea how close it actually is to his property but the principle of not having your stuff disturbed by random strangers who think they've got a god-given right to trample where they please is the same.)

I agree completely

 

[Peter Burgess]

Some years back I used to be a regular visitor to Ystradfellte, staying at the Croydon CC cottage, or nearby. In those days, and I am sure things are not so different now, the village was a close knit community, people were proud of their village and by and large the outsiders, i.e. cavers, were largely welcomed. We got to know some of the residents reasonably well and as far as I could tell there was a mutual respect. And that is the point, isn't it? If you are trusted to behave responsibly in someone else's community, then there is a mutual toleration of each others' wishes.

I suspect that if I was a resident of Ystradfellte who had come to an understanding with a number of trusted cavers, I would now have grave misgivings about my position reading some of the (fortunately few) comments that show little or no respect for those who own property in such a beautiful place.

Perhaps it is difficult for some people to appreciate that just because some cavers come to an understanding with the owner of property, it doesn't mean that same trust is automatically going to be extended to everyone else.

I might own a field, and be happy for a few trusted people to use it for camping from time to time. I might not be so happy for anybody with a caravan or tent to turn up just when they feel like it, particularly if they rip the lock off the field gate to gain access.

 

[estelle]

Some years back I used to be a regular visitor to Ystradfellte, staying at the Croydon CC cottage, or nearby. In those days, and I am sure things are not so different now, the village was a close knit community, people were proud of their village and by and large the outsiders, i.e. cavers, were largely welcomed. We got to know some of the residents reasonably well and as far as I could tell there was a mutual respect. And that is the point, isn't it? If you are trusted to behave responsibly in someone else's community, then there is a mutual toleration of each others' wishes.

I suspect that if I was a resident of Ystradfellte who had come to an understanding with a number of trusted cavers, I would now have grave misgivings about my position reading some of the (fortunately few) comments that show little or no respect for those who own property in such a beautiful place.

Perhaps it is difficult for some people to appreciate that just because some cavers come to an understanding with the owner of property, it doesn't mean that same trust is automatically going to be extended to everyone else.

I might own a field, and be happy for a few trusted people to use it for camping from time to time. I might not be so happy for anybody with a caravan or tent to turn up just when they feel like it, particularly if they rip the lock off the field gate to gain access.

well said 

 

[khakipuce]

Yes well said Peter!

Can I also suggest that people go back and read the first 2 posts in this discussion it hints at something that is often said by politicians and the like - in the internet age we all need to be much more media savvy. Once a story gets out it needs to be controlled, ignoring web postings and hoping they will go away is just not an option - politicians and businesses learned this about a decade ago and the caving community needs to catch up.

 

[Brains]

Shame a gate was thought to be needed at all in the first place, it couldnt have been removed if it wasnt there!

We are told that, amongst other things the guy takes his water supply from the cave.

Do you let all and sundry walk across your back garden or do you have a fence and a gate?

(And for the picky, I have no idea how close it actually is to his property but the principle of not having your stuff disturbed by random strangers who think they've got a god-given right to trample where they please is the same.)

There are many caves/mines in the Peak that are also water supplies. Some are gated, some are not.
My garden/yard is not of caving interest, to attempt to draw link these items is also irrelevant. I am pro caver so if I did have features of interest on land I had custodianship of then my response would undoubtedly be biased.
Those looking for underground features are most certainly not random.
God doesnt exist so cant influence rights, humans acting in the name of god are a different matter.

Please dont confuse my thoughts and opinions about gates in general with condoning the vandalism that has occurred here (I dont). You argue the case well and stridently for the landowner and restricted access, who argues the case for the caver and more open access?
Surely as cavers our collective aim should be the pursuit of caving and all it entails, not the obstruction of it? "Shame a gate was thought to be needed at all in the first place, it couldnt have been removed if it wasnt there!"
This individual cave is now a done deal, but what of other caves? Perhaps you could put your talents to use persuading other landowners that gates and restrictions are an uneccessary nuisance that can lead to ill-will, conflict, empire building and posturing. Conservation is about education, preservation is about locking the place down... 

 

[Goydenman]

Please dont confuse my thoughts and opinions about gates in general with condoning the vandalism that has occurred here (I dont). You argue the case well and stridently for the landowner and restricted access, who argues the case for the caver and more open access?
Surely as cavers our collective aim should be the pursuit of caving and all it entails, not the obstruction of it? "Shame a gate was thought to be needed at all in the first place, it couldnt have been removed if it wasnt there!"
This individual cave is now a done deal, but what of other caves? Perhaps you could put your talents to use persuading other landowners that gates and restrictions are an uneccessary nuisance that can lead to ill-will, conflict, empire building and posturing. Conservation is about education, preservation is about locking the place down... 

Well said

 

[droid]

This individual cave is now a done deal, but what of other caves? Perhaps you could put your talents to use persuading other landowners that gates and restrictions are an uneccessary nuisance that can lead to ill-will, conflict, empire building and posturing. Conservation is about education, preservation is about locking the place down... 

For that persuasion to be effective, cavers need to demonstrate that they have self-control and patience. Qualities sadly lacking in this case.

There are many reasons why a landowner/tenant might want to restrict access to a cave. Caving, to the average farmer is an unneccessary irrelevence. Arguing for unrestricted access is naive. Better to argue for sustainable access, in other words a compromise. That compromise will always be in favour of the landowner however. There is no reason for them to agree to any access if they don't want to.

 

[graham]

You argue the case well and stridently for the landowner and restricted access, who argues the case for the caver and more open access?

I do. I help administer a number of access schemes. In one case it took me ten years of patient negotiation to reopen a cave that had been closed for over forty years.

It is a shame that some cavers do not have this degree of self control.

 

[Ship-badger]

Fortunately not all of us think like that.

But a great number of cavers that I speak with do. Attitudes don't lose or gain access to caves, only actions do that.

 

[graham]

Fortunately not all of us think like that.

But a great number of cavers that I speak with do. Attitudes don't lose or gain access to caves, only actions do that.

Do you ever carry out any actions that are not predicated on your attitude towards a given situation?

Attitudes precede actions and make space for them.

 

[mrodoc]

Fortunately not all of us think like that.

But a great number of cavers that I speak with do. Attitudes don't lose or gain access to caves, only actions do that.

Most of us don't. I assume (and hope) that Ship Badger is probably well under 30 (as are the others he mentions)  and if he isn't he should grow up a bit. Caves seemingly shut irrevocably can be reopened by skilled negotiation but not by individuals continuing to stick 2 fingers up at the landowners. 

 

[droid]

Fortunately not all of us think like that.

But a great number of cavers that I speak with do. Attitudes don't lose or gain access to caves, only actions do that.

If, as a landowner someone came to me with your attitude asking for access it'd be denied.

If they went in anyway, the cave would be permanently sealed.

Don't kid yourself that caves and cavers are anything but a nuisance to the average farmer.

 

[khakipuce]

Farmers, like any other group of people, are a very diverse bunch so you will see a range of attitudes and I think it's quite a bit more complicated than cavers are "a nuisance to the average farmer".

I know a few farmers and in general they are happy to share their land with people they trust to behave reasonably. They are also generally very interested in every aspect of their land and want to know more about it, also they recognise the economic benefit of tourism, it keeps their shops and pubs open. They are also very concerned with making a living and simple things like gates left open and broken-down walls can be a big hasste.

 

[crickleymal]

Most of us don't. I assume (and hope) that Ship Badger is probably well under 30 

 

[Chris Crowley]

Whoever it was who destroyed the gate wasn`t just frustrated at not being able to visit it as it wass unlocked at the time  so they could have gone and met one of the the discovers !  It was just an act of spite that means that now nobody will able to visit was is an excellent that needs careful preservationcave- Chris Crowley (I don`t suppose whoever it was would be that amused if they arrived home to find THEIR front door missing! )

 

[SpeleoTrog]

I assume (and hope) that Ship Badger is probably well under 30

Are we talking age or IQ?

 

[mrodoc]

I assume (and hope) that Ship Badger is probably well under 30

Are we talking age or IQ?

 

[Goydenman]

Whoever it was who destroyed the gate wasn`t just frustrated at not being able to visit it as it wass unlocked at the time  so they could have gone and met one of the the discovers !  It was just an act of spite that means that now nobody will able to visit was is an excellent that needs careful preservationcave- Chris Crowley (I don`t suppose whoever it was would be that amused if they arrived home to find THEIR front door missing! )

Spot on with your initial statement - meeting up with the discovers would have been a positive approach - but with the secrecy I guess that might be difficult knowing who they are. that is why I like to let people know what we are doing and finding so they can contact us and gain their support in keeping away for a period if required.

As for the comparison with 'own front door missing' not so sure. How about a comparison with fences with gates suddenly appearing around all the cliffs in an area of the UK people would be unhappy about that.

 

[droid]

I know a few farmers and in general they are happy to share their land with people they trust to behave reasonably. They are also generally very interested in every aspect of their land and want to know more about it, also they recognise the economic benefit of tourism, it keeps their shops and pubs open. They are also very concerned with making a living and simple things like gates left open and broken-down walls can be a big hasste.

Farmers 'in general' (and isn't that just as much a generalisation as"the average farmer"?) are unhappy to share their land with people that can't be trusted. My point is that cavers need to be in the 'trusted' category and it only needs one arsehole to destroy that trust.
It might well be that cavers are an economic benefit very locally (like The Hunters) but their general economic benefit is pretty negligible I suspect.