Standardisation of some caving statements eg. i can do srt

[Andy Sparrow]

Just catching up on this thread having spent the night digging - yes, caving without commercial return - strange behaviour indeed for one who sees caves purely as assets to be exploited.

But BCA sponsored training courses are available. BCA tries to give money away for amateur caving courses, even run by professionals.

It has proved problematic for the Training Committee to actually give this money away though, as people are just not applying for it.  :-\

Yes indeed, grants are available to clubs, should they choose to apply for them.  It's hardly surprising, reading the comments and views expressed on this thread, that many clubs have never been inclined to take advantage of this.

Quote - British Caving isn't broke.  No, and neither will it be so long as it listens to what the next generation of cavers actually wants and doesn't dictate what they are going to get.  And that's my point - I have not said during this discussion that we should implement BCA sponsored SRT training.  What I said is that I see no problem with it if it's what the next generation of cavers want.

Even one of my fiercest critics once admitted that if you cut me in half I would have 'caver' written through the middle.  Believe it or not I can express support for the general principle of BCA sponsored training without ??? signs lighting up in my eyes.  Actually I am not far off 60 years old and by the time the BCA adopted and implemented such a scheme I will probably have hung up my helmet, so it's hardly going to line my pockets. 

 

[Elaine]

Wot - you mean you are rich enough to retire at 60?

Only joking! 

 

[al]

But this thread isn't about training (formal, paid-for or otherwise) it's about how you can tell whether somebody going down a serious vertical cave with you is up to it.

The arguments are not against some CIC trying to scrape a living by teaching freshers how to cave, but against certification - partly because certification isn't detailed enough to tell the whole story, and partly because insurers, landowners and administrators would use it as an easy answer to the same question this thread poses - and the result would be detrimental to the whole spirit of British caving.

 

[Leclused]

After a good night (no digging for me  ) Here a suggestion for the BCA to setup a training group within the BCA.

The BCA collects technical skilled persons from all clubs to make a  team of volunteers which will give the training. The volunteers are not paid only the costs for transport,extra training are refunded. In that way the training has no commercial value and all clubs are involved.

The huge advantage is that not every club it giving their own training (which is mostly done by the same persons within a club) but training becomes a joined effort of the clubs. Skills and knowledge about rigging/rescue techniques which is now distributed over the different clubs is then combined to give the best training possible.

This is in a nutshell how the WSV works. The WSV is currently giving their training as wel for  Belgian as Dutch cavers.

If wanted I can give the BCA a contact within the WSV to explain a bit more their way of working.

Dagobert (SC Avalon)

 

[cap n chris]

Here a suggestion for the BCA to setup a training group within the BCA.

http://british-caving.org.uk/?page=4

 

[Cookie]

Here a suggestion for the BCA to setup a training group within the BCA.

http://british-caving.org.uk/?page=4

Yes, but it doesn't operate as Leclused proposed.

 

[Pitlamp]

[quote Quote - British Caving isn't broke.  No, and neither will it be so long as it listens to what the next generation of cavers actually wants and doesn't dictate what they are going to get.  And that's my point - I have not said during this discussion that we should implement BCA sponsored SRT training.  What I said is that I see no problem with it if it's what the next generation of cavers want.
[/quote]

Caving should move in whatever way ALL of its participants want. By definition the "next generation" is collectively the least experienced. Surely you're not suggesting that the considered views of other groups within caving should have no influence in decisions which potentially affect all participants?

Delighted to learn you're still actively digging. Best of luck with the project.

 

[ogof addict]

I thought this was all about people exagerating their ability rather than certificates. A certificate, compulsory or not, isn't going to stop people from dropping half their srt kit down pitches or not doing their centre maillon up. Or lying.  Or saying they have done the cave but have only done the easy bit at the entrance.

If caving with an unknown, go somewhere simple first rather than ask for a bit of paper

 

[Elaine]

That is the approach I take when taking people caving for the first time - especially people I don't know. I take them to Goatchurch first (popular dry novice cave on Mendip) so I can see what they are like before taking them elsewhere. I am sometimes criticised for this but I feel I am responsible for them so I do it how I am happy doing it. I am happy to take them to a wet and more sporting cave next time if I think they are up to it and I can make sure they are dressed accordingly.
So why not do the same with other skills like srt. 

 

[graham]

So why not do the same with other skills like srt.

The thing about srt is that it is a specific skill that can be taught/learnt. The same does not really apply to most other caving skills. How do you teach someone to pass a tight duck with 1" airspace, except by taking them through a tight duck with 1" airspace?

Or not, if they find themselves unable to do it.

 

[Amy]

I dont know if everyone has the ability to learn srt really though...I've seen some folk come to practice week after week and they still can't do a changeover, backwards rig their rack all the time, etc. I think it does come more easily to some than others. I find extremely logical and systematic. Others can't make heads or tails of why we do things the way they do and hence can't grasp the concepts of what is safe and what isn't and hence screw up a lot because they are forever trying to just memorize steps but forgetting important bits instead of just being able to understand it.

 

[Bob Mehew]

The thing about srt is that it is a specific skill that can be taught/learnt. The same does not really apply to most other caving skills. How do you teach someone to pass a tight duck with 1" airspace, except by taking them through a tight duck with 1" airspace?

You could take them to a wet cave to check that they don't freak out with the cold.  You could then take them through a full duck so they have some idea of what it is like to work underwater.  You could then take them to a short 1 inch airspace duck before then going to a much longer one.  Most aspects of caving can be built up by previous experience with a bit of thought. 

And to go back to a previous comment of yours Graham, surely a well trained caver is less likely to damage the cave and better appreciate reasons for conservation?

Lastly I recall a proposal was made to set up a written program for novices to follow in a club environment but the idea got shot down (by NOT the usual suspects) before it even started to be discussed out with the region of origination.  Yes the UK is very touchy in this area.   

Oh and to whoever it was who claimed no insurance claim had succeeded, I am afraid you are wrong.  One was settled out of court back in the 70s against the other members of the party and the club.  Luckily it came within the insurance cover but it set off a mighty jump in cover afterwards (and premium).   

 

[droid]

So why not do the same with other skills like srt.

The thing about srt is that it is a specific skill that can be taught/learnt. The same does not really apply to most other caving skills.

Which is why, of course, those who wish to regulate and certificate caving pick on it.

 

[graham]

You could take them to a wet cave to check that they don't freak out with the cold.  You could then take them through a full duck so they have some idea of what it is like to work underwater.  You could then take them to a short 1 inch airspace duck before then going to a much longer one.  Most aspects of caving can be built up by previous experience with a bit of thought.

Relevant word highlighted.

And to go back to a previous comment of yours Graham, surely a well trained caver is less likely to damage the cave and better appreciate reasons for conservation?

If well trained, yes. But if they are being trained to break access regulations, as has happened in the recent past in the UK ...

Oh and to whoever it was who claimed no insurance claim had succeeded, I am afraid you are wrong.  One was settled out of court back in the 70s against the other members of the party and the club.  Luckily it came within the insurance cover but it set off a mighty jump in cover afterwards (and premium). 

I believe that another claim was also settled by the insurers, something about a poorly fenced dig and damage to livestock. I am afraid I don't recall the details.

 

[darren]

and  yes I do know that no caver has ever been successfully sued for there actions

Oh and to whoever it was who claimed no insurance claim had succeeded, I am afraid you are wrong.  One was settled out of court back in the 70s against the other members of the party and the club.  Luckily it came within the insurance cover but it set off a mighty jump in cover afterwards (and premium).
 

Its me whoever.
Nothing like a few unsubstantiated story over 30 years old to prove I am wrong. Could you be so kind as to back up your statement with a link or other proof. I'm afraid it was a bit before my time.

 

[graham]

Its me whoever.
Nothing like a few unsubstantiated story over 30 years old to prove I am wrong. Could you be so kind as to back up your statement with a link or other proof. I'm afraid it was a bit before my time.

Hi there, whoever. It doesn't prove you wrong as no case has ever gone against a caver in court. On the other hand, the 30 year old story is most certainly not unsubstantiated, many of the people concerned are still around. I, for one, however, am, not going to discuss other people's business on an open forum.

 

[ian.p]

right well hear we go not sure if im next generation or present now but hear are some thoughts:

firstly i think we need to be clear on two points:

-At the mo training courses/qualifications are available from the BCA for those who need/want them.

- the BCA will sponsor uncertified club/regional SRT training sessions if you apply via the training officer.

Ive been involved in youth caving for quite a few years now when it comes to taking children caving it is usefull to have a qualification scheme in place even for us volunteers for numerous reasons i hold a level 1 so do a number of other volunteers with FSC and this allows us to operate under an organisational insurance scheme without the whole organisation which is quite big (takes 3000 plus kids camping walking/ canoing/ cycling/ and a relatively small number caving so not realey suitable for BCA insurance where all members are meant to be join the scheme) so for that organisation having a qualification scheme is great
For a smaller organisation EECC we don't need an insurance scheme though we do encourage some of our leaders to do them as it future proofs us a bit.

Where certification becomes a real minefield is in university caving i and number of other good competent vertical cavers teach freshers SRT. To be certified to do this we would have to be CICs to get someone trained to CIC level you wouldn't have much change out of ?1000 and it'd take even a super keen been over a year to do. If the BCA was to endorse this scheme within amateur caving it would be a disaster (and i don't think it intends to) within student and probably club caving as well (though without unions on their back club cavers would be a lot more able to just ignore it). If a BCA endorsed certification scheme requiring anyone wanting to use SRT to be certified is braught in you can bet unions will expect us to conform to this and putting 20 students thorough say a ?100 assesment would bankrupt a club so the cost would have to be passed onto the student i personaly think thats a crap idea and its not going to help the sport id rather they spent that money on a lamp...
an endorsed list of skills a vertical caver should know rather than a certificate requiring an instructor to asses is fine i don't think it will make a huge amount of difference as the people who are a menace are the least likely to read it....

id finish by saying that (and i think most CIC would agree) weekend courses are fine they can be a great way to gain and extend skills and knowledge and tap some wisdom from people who know their stuff when it comes to taking groups caving ( if you get a good CIC)  but its absolutely no substitute for caving regularly with peers (as Andy pointed out in his post) both more and less experienced than yourself I've met people who have been on a weekend course think they're the Bees knees when in reality they know f*** all. Having a peace of paper that says your competent ain't going to help when you've talked yourself up into going on a trip with gymnastic rigging and tight pitch heads and looks just a little bit different to alum pot....indeed i think one of the biggest weaknesses in a certification system is it puts something of a perceived end for some people on the learning process.
actually new final note all qualification skills (quite sensably) are based nearly entirely around group sport caving there really isn't a cyllabus for teaching someone to be a good explorer other than taking them out and getting them doing it with other experienced folk to look out for them. you cant create a ticket that states this person is capeable of being knackered dehydrated and stuck upside down in some shit hole whilst still wearing a smile. Lets not forget that at the end of the day our sport has many facets and formal certificates are only usefull for a small number of them. I know a large number of cavers who are pissed of with people thinking a CIC being the highest level of formal qualification equates to a ticket saying "i am a caving god and you should all aspire to be like me" good CICs and most cavers realise that theres no such thing and have a similar level of respct for a skilled photographer/surveyor/rigger etc to somebody who holds a CIC. I think the BCA and the ACIC need to be very wary of this image and certainly putting instructors in charge of deciding who can get on a rope is not going to help this....

 

[Fulk]

Sure opened a canna worms, didn't you, hrock? 

 

[Bob Mehew]

Its me whoever.
Nothing like a few unsubstantiated story over 30 years old to prove I am wrong. Could you be so kind as to back up your statement with a link or other proof. I'm afraid it was a bit before my time.

I will follow Graham and not publicly disclose details so you will have to take my word for it.  I think the livestock case happened in Ireland and a report appeared in Descent.

 

[Aubrey]

Its me whoever.
Nothing like a few unsubstantiated story over 30 years old to prove I am wrong. Could you be so kind as to back up your statement with a link or other proof. I'm afraid it was a bit before my time.

PM sent