I have penned some notes on the CNCC meeting which I attended today shedding a little more light on some of the questions which have been raised on this forum.
The chairman made it very clear that CNCC did not wish to engage with UKCaving and would take no notice of discussions on the forum. If anyone wanted to make a point then they should attend the meetings, (which is how I came to be there). In my opinion, this is a lost opportunity to engage with a wider audience and explain the workings of the Council, hence the reason for my post.
Questions were asked as to who the CNCC actually represents. As has been pointed out on this forum their constitution suggests that they ?represent the general interests of member clubs and northern cavers?. However the CNCC will only issue permits to full or associate members clubs. They will not issue permits to clubs who are not members of BCA, local or foreign, and they will not issue permits to individuals even if they are direct members or club members of BCA. There was a reluctance to open up access to individuals because it was felt that this would impact on club membership. I was left with the impression that the CNCC only wished to represent the interests of member clubs and not the individuals that form that club or other cavers who were independent of clubs.
There was no discussion on the issues surrounding the proposed new permits for professional caving on Leck and Casterton fells although this had been a hot topic of debate in recent months.
The European Speleological Congress is coming to the Yorkshire Dales in 2016 and a great opportunity to showcase Dales caving. The CNCC is waiting to hear details from BCA. Unfortunately, relations between the two organisations are at a low ebb with certain officers of CNCC refusing to attend meetings or talk to BCA. Some in the meeting urged CNCC to draw a line under their differences but judging by the provocative language used this may be difficult. The CPC is making their winch meet available but the question was posed as to how the 1000+ delegates were going to access permitted caves. The CNCC secretary stated that he had sorted this out and that there would be ?no problems?. Despite some questioning he would not elaborate on how this would work. Others in the room suggested that the process of registering at the congress would give delegates access to the caves. It was mentioned that CHECC had been denied similar access to permitted caves for its event when it was held in the Dales. It was confirmed that access to the permitted caves for CHECC could only be through their member clubs. It was not clear what kind of exception was being made for the European Congress.
An interesting discussion took place over, what was termed, ?digging permits? for Leck Fell. Although the existence of these permits was not known to some of the full member clubs in the room apparently they have been used by select groups for five years. There is no mention of them on the CNCC web site and they were controlled unofficially by an individual but with the knowledge of the CNCC officers. Accusations that these permits were issued ?under the counter? between those in the know were strongly denied but figures produced at the meeting showed that over 400 had been issued which accounted for some 50% of the total permits. Other diggers had started asking awkward questions about fairness and transparency which could not be answered and the council proposed ending the practice.
A serious point was raised about the CNCC committee and the legitimacy of their voting. The constitution states that, ?A working committee shall be elected every year at the general meeting. The committee shall consist of fourteen members, each of whom will represent a different full member club?. The officers admitted that no committee elections had taken place for at least five years, and despite advance notification, they could not say who the fourteen members of the committee were. The votes that I observed were made on a show of hands of those people present with no noticeable checks at all. It was also noted that the list of full member clubs, which had been asked to be read into the minutes, had not been updated since 2004.
I took up the invitation, as issued on this forum, to attend CNCC meetings. It opened my eyes to the work that goes on behind the scenes of northern caving. I was welcomed to the meeting (I think) and given the opportunity to ask questions. However, I did discover that the CNCC will robustly defend their positions if you start asking awkward questions. During the day I experienced being repeatedly poked in the chest by one club rep whilst being told how good CNCC are, and one officer startled me somewhat by banging his fists on the table, jumping up, whilst shouting. Even so, I may attend future meetings and would suggest more cavers do the same.
These are my own observations; official minutes of the meeting will be published by CNCC.
The chairman made it very clear that CNCC did not wish to engage with UKCaving and would take no notice of discussions on the forum. If anyone wanted to make a point then they should attend the meetings, (which is how I came to be there). In my opinion, this is a lost opportunity to engage with a wider audience and explain the workings of the Council, hence the reason for my post.
Questions were asked as to who the CNCC actually represents. As has been pointed out on this forum their constitution suggests that they ?represent the general interests of member clubs and northern cavers?. However the CNCC will only issue permits to full or associate members clubs. They will not issue permits to clubs who are not members of BCA, local or foreign, and they will not issue permits to individuals even if they are direct members or club members of BCA. There was a reluctance to open up access to individuals because it was felt that this would impact on club membership. I was left with the impression that the CNCC only wished to represent the interests of member clubs and not the individuals that form that club or other cavers who were independent of clubs.
There was no discussion on the issues surrounding the proposed new permits for professional caving on Leck and Casterton fells although this had been a hot topic of debate in recent months.
The European Speleological Congress is coming to the Yorkshire Dales in 2016 and a great opportunity to showcase Dales caving. The CNCC is waiting to hear details from BCA. Unfortunately, relations between the two organisations are at a low ebb with certain officers of CNCC refusing to attend meetings or talk to BCA. Some in the meeting urged CNCC to draw a line under their differences but judging by the provocative language used this may be difficult. The CPC is making their winch meet available but the question was posed as to how the 1000+ delegates were going to access permitted caves. The CNCC secretary stated that he had sorted this out and that there would be ?no problems?. Despite some questioning he would not elaborate on how this would work. Others in the room suggested that the process of registering at the congress would give delegates access to the caves. It was mentioned that CHECC had been denied similar access to permitted caves for its event when it was held in the Dales. It was confirmed that access to the permitted caves for CHECC could only be through their member clubs. It was not clear what kind of exception was being made for the European Congress.
An interesting discussion took place over, what was termed, ?digging permits? for Leck Fell. Although the existence of these permits was not known to some of the full member clubs in the room apparently they have been used by select groups for five years. There is no mention of them on the CNCC web site and they were controlled unofficially by an individual but with the knowledge of the CNCC officers. Accusations that these permits were issued ?under the counter? between those in the know were strongly denied but figures produced at the meeting showed that over 400 had been issued which accounted for some 50% of the total permits. Other diggers had started asking awkward questions about fairness and transparency which could not be answered and the council proposed ending the practice.
A serious point was raised about the CNCC committee and the legitimacy of their voting. The constitution states that, ?A working committee shall be elected every year at the general meeting. The committee shall consist of fourteen members, each of whom will represent a different full member club?. The officers admitted that no committee elections had taken place for at least five years, and despite advance notification, they could not say who the fourteen members of the committee were. The votes that I observed were made on a show of hands of those people present with no noticeable checks at all. It was also noted that the list of full member clubs, which had been asked to be read into the minutes, had not been updated since 2004.
I took up the invitation, as issued on this forum, to attend CNCC meetings. It opened my eyes to the work that goes on behind the scenes of northern caving. I was welcomed to the meeting (I think) and given the opportunity to ask questions. However, I did discover that the CNCC will robustly defend their positions if you start asking awkward questions. During the day I experienced being repeatedly poked in the chest by one club rep whilst being told how good CNCC are, and one officer startled me somewhat by banging his fists on the table, jumping up, whilst shouting. Even so, I may attend future meetings and would suggest more cavers do the same.
These are my own observations; official minutes of the meeting will be published by CNCC.
