Observations on CNCC meeting

[Jon]

There is no record in the published minutes of the CNCC Technical Group ever being elected onto the committee. I have repeatedly questioned Glenn Jones, who claims to represent the CNCC TG, about how the CNCC TG can claim to be on the committee and he has refused to answer.

That is absolutely not true. I replied to you on 28th of January at 16.50 and told you where you would find the information you asked for. You also called the CNCC TG "dodgy" and when I asked you to explain what you meant, you refused to either refute or justify that accusation. It was then that I told you that I could see no further point in continuing the email exchange.

Everyones favourite sport's back on!  Watching Glen Jones trying to walk in a straight line!

Hi Alex, many thanks for reminding me why I gave up on this forum last time (never let the truth get in the way of a juicy scandal eh?)

'bye all

And ironically, Badlad 's description of the CNCC meeting he attended made this forum look like nuns birthday party.

With the exception of Exsumper of course, who doesn't know what a constructive comment is.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Even if allegations made in this topic have some foundation (and I honestly don't know either way)

John and anybody else who might say "I honestly don't either way" can check it out by looking at the minutes. There has been no election of the committee since 2007. The Mickey Mouse 'clubs' that the Secretary/Access Officer and the Treasurer claim to represent have never been elected. You can choose to sweep aside the corruption of democracy on the grounds that "the people who seem to be the object of criticism do a lot of good work" but take a look at what they have been doing.

The primary function of the CNCC was to negotiate and administer access to caves and I for one think it should be administered equitably. The CNCC has been running a clandestine system for issuing permits to a group of cronies at short notice and the figures in the minutes suggest that the vast majority were issued in this way. The secret permit system was completely against the access agreement and the constitution. That coninued for quite a few years and might have continued if it hadn't been for the Secretary/Access Officer sneeking about on the fells accosting people and berating them for caving without a permit (I have been reliably informed) and also refusing permits to cavers who had a proposal for a serious research project and requested a few extra permits.

That is one local matter; other people might consider the break down of the relationship between the CNCC and the BCA and the reasons for it to be more important.

 

[graham]

It's an interesting one, this democracy thing.

I agree that much good work has been done by many of the people involved over the years and I, for one have cause to be grateful to the work done by Glenn in his BCA role. I suspect that he gets a disproportionate amount of the flack, as he does (or did?) post on here. Maybe others deserve more, I don't know.

On the other hand, the comment about good work always reminds me of the famous quote about Mussolini that at least "he made the trains run on time."

It does seem that there is something 'not quite right' with the functioning of CNCC at present and that does need addressing as it is seen as the responsible local body for a significant part of UK caving. I personally don't get to the Dales very often at all these days but my club does, as does just about every other club in the country so this is a matter that concerns us all.

I don't know what the answers are, but it is as clear as day that there are questions. I just hope that this bit of publicity will mean that member clubs will attend the AGM and will sort the matter out, openly and democratically.

 

[Bottlebank]

It does seem that there is something 'not quite right' with the functioning of CNCC at present and that does need addressing as it is seen as the responsible local body for a significant part of UK caving. I personally don't get to the Dales very often at all these days but my club does, as does just about every other club in the country so this is a matter that concerns us all.

Perfectly put, if a little understated!

It might also be helpful if Gary could put a link up to the member clubs list on the web site because I can't find it?

 

[Pitlamp]

You're right Simon; checking minutes is always an option. Your last post above did make me ponder on this issue for a short while. Like most cavers I'd rather be underground rather than indulging in meetings and their aftermath. On reflection, I think one of the main reasons I'm grateful to our CNCC officers is that I don't have to spend my time doing the latter, allowing me more time to do the former.

So I still "honestly don't know" about this particular issue in question. What I can be honest about is that none of the various officers of the CNCC has ever done anything to cause me problems personally and that on the occasions over the years when asked for advice or help they've always been great with me. All of which makes me sad to see some quite negative comments in this topic, whether or not justified.

I'm with Graham - it'd be grand to have any issues cleared in a way that satisfies everyone, through proper democratic processes. This forum has many excellent uses but it's not part of the relevant process in this case. So if individual officers choose not to respond here, I think I can understand.

Some people obviously feel strongly about this - which I fully respect. But let's have it sorted out properly.

 

[martinm]

It's an interesting one, this democracy thing. I don't know what the answers are, but it is as clear as day that there are questions. I just hope that this bit of publicity will mean that member clubs will attend the AGM and will sort the matter out, openly and democratically.

hear, hear Graham / Pitlamp. I haven't been up the dales for a while now, unfortunately, due to other commitments, but it would be good to see this sorted amicably between all parties concerned.  We should all be working / communicating together to support caving / access / conservation in general for everybody's benefit.

Regards Mel. DCA Conservation Officer.

 

[Bottlebank]

Simon and I often disagree, on many things, but generally I'd support him on this.

There seem to be various things wrong, ranging from a refusal to push for access for DIM's, a committee that appears to have elected itself, permits being issued apparently "under the counter", the declared procedure for obtaining a permit being totally obsolete, rows with the BCA etc, with it's own rules and procedures pretty much ignored, negotiations in secret on behalf of instructors (rightly or wrongly) and a great deal of reluctance to be open and honest - even to the member clubs. I suggested before that the CNCC needs something along the lines of a spokesperson to communicate with the cavers it represents, as Badlad says the minutes of the last meeting aren't available yet, and the next is just over three weeks away.

Dragging out the info on the extra permits for instructors a few months ago was a great example - a simple request for information led to a huge row.

It's hard to see why the technical group even needs to be involved, bolting and access negotiation with landowners are really two separate issues.

From various discussions in the last few months it's also pretty obvious that even some people heavily involved are very unhappy with the way it's run, as are many Dales cavers.

Perhaps the AGM would be a good opportunity to get a new committee voted in and a fresh start, with a re-evaluation of what the CNCC should be doing and far more input from member clubs and cavers in general.

Falling back on the "read the minutes" line is not achieving anything.

 

[exsumper]

Simon and I often disagree, on many things, but generally I'd support him on this.

There seem to be various things wrong, ranging from a refusal to push for access for DIM's, a committee that appears to have elected itself, permits being issued apparently "under the counter", the declared procedure for obtaining a permit being totally obsolete, rows with the BCA etc, with it's own rules and procedures pretty much ignored, negotiations in secret on behalf of instructors (rightly or wrongly) and a great deal of reluctance to be open and honest - even to the member clubs. I suggested before that the CNCC needs something along the lines of a spokesperson to communicate with the cavers it represents, as Badlad says the minutes of the last meeting aren't available yet, and the next is just over three weeks away.

Dragging out the info on the extra permits for instructors a few months ago was a great example - a simple request for information led to a huge row.

It's hard to see why the technical group even needs to be involved, bolting and access negotiation with landowners are really two separate issues.

From various discussions in the last few months it's also pretty obvious that even some people heavily involved are very unhappy with the way it's run, as are many Dales cavers.

Perhaps the AGM would be a good opportunity to get a new committee voted in and a fresh start, with a re-evaluation of what the CNCC should be doing and far more input from member clubs and cavers in general.

Falling back on the "read the minutes" line is not achieving anything.

Bottlebank: Tthanks for listing the " Good"sic That the CNCC have been doing. It saves me having to detail the lies and deceit myself.

Jon: In this instance I see little that is constructive.

Yes in common with most of my caving friends, I'm still bloody angry that the CNCC tried to f*** up British caving by first suggesting and then promoting cash for access.

Finally,  a heartfelt plea to our northern brethren, do your fellow cavers a favour, Attend the CNCC AGM en masse and boot the existing committee members out.

 

[Peter Burgess]

If you think something is broke, and needs fixing, what other useful option is there but to be "constructive"?

 

[graham]

It might also be helpful if Gary could put a link up to the member clubs list on the web site because I can't find it?

I think Damien was referring to the BCA club membership list. That can be found here.

 

[graham]

Perhaps the AGM would be a good opportunity to get a new committee voted in and a fresh start, with a re-evaluation of what the CNCC should be doing and far more input from member clubs and cavers in general.

That, of course, requires volunteers to stick their heads over the parapet. I trust that this will happen. The CNCC constitution does not seem to require that nominations are made in advance and is a touch vague as to whether the officers are elected by the membership as a whole and then become part of the committee or whether they are appointed by the committee from amongst its (previously elected) members. In fact it's more than vague, it is contradictory:

Para:

The committee shall consist of fourteen members, each of whom will represent a different full member club

Para:

There shall be a Chairman, Secretary, Treasurer, Conservation Officer and Training Officer who shall be members of different member clubs so far as this is possible, and will be subject to instruction from the Committee.

So are the officers actually members of the committee or not? Do they have votes?

Para:

A quorum at a committee meeting shall consist of six committee members, at least one of whom shall be an Officer of the Council.

Hmm

Para:

Each member of the committee shall have one vote; the Chairman shall not have a casting vote.

Apart from anything else, were I involved (which I cannot be as I am not a member of a full member club so no heckling from the cheap seats please!) I'd settle down and redraft this constitution. In my experience bodies always function better if everybody has a clear picture of their powers and responsibilities.

So, to get back to the main point. If anybody does feel sufficiently about this to get involved (and if you don't then you only have yourself to blame in the future), get the backing of your club and see if you can raise some backing from amongst the other member clubs.

 

[exsumper]

If you think something is broke, and needs fixing, what other useful option is there but to be "constructive"?

You've got to cut the rot out first before you start to reconstruct anything! So therefore Jon is wrong and my comments are constructive after all. 

 

[exsumper]

The CNCC was founded in 1963 by eight large and well-established clubs of the day and I have represented two of those founding clubs at the CNCC. EPC has an elected officer called the CNCC Representative who has a duty to truly represent the views of the 35 present club members at the CNCC and produce a report and is answerable to the club. I canvass opinion and discuss CNCC matters around my club, ask any of them. That is the model of democracy on which the CNCC was based.

There are 55 full member clubs who can vote at the AGM and from those the AGM elects up to 14 committee member clubs who can vote at committee meetings. All officers have to be a member of a committee member club and have the vote for that club.

There is no record in the published minutes of the CNCC Technical Group ever being elected onto the committee. I have repeatedly questioned Glenn Jones, who claims to represent the CNCC TG, about how the CNCC TG can claim to be on the committee and he has refused to answer. I have also questioned whether or not it can ligitimately claim to be a caving club at all and eligible to be even a member club. This was his reply: "Why do you think it?s not  a caving club? It?s got members. It?s got T shirts. It?s got car stickers. It goes caving. It has meetings. It has Christmas Dinners.  Which bit is not a caving club?" -----------  :-\-----

Maybe other people might like to question the representatives of the Lancashire Underground Group, Elysium Underground Group and the Dent House Speleologocal Society about their clubs.

Had a look at the CNCC TG website The club appears to have everything apart from a membership secretary or details of how to join?

As for the LUG, the EUG and the DHSS, Given that these are the clubs the Main officers of the CNCC belong to, one can only assume that these are major Yorkshire clubs that I've never heard of?

Anyone know the telephone no of the CNCC TG membership secretary?

 

[richardg]

Interestingly this forum has almost 3000 members.

This topic which has set out to assassinate the character of both the CNCC and BCA officers has mainly been kept going by only one guy who regularly caves in the region and two who by their own admittance rarely if ever cave up here in Yorkshire.

As Pitlamp says "perhaps a more balanced debate"

What about These three against the other almost three thousand cavers on this UK Caving forum and elsewhere who are obviously happy with the officers of BCA and CNCC and Welsh, Derbyshire  and Southern equivalents.

I'm an exploration caver who has good reason to praise both CNCC and BCA they have been very helpful, for which I am equally
appreciative. these are great guys who give their time voluntarily to ensure overall access to our caves is maintained.

A Big thankyou to all those who work in these groups giving their time to ensure the rest of us can just get on and enjoy ourselves


Richard

 

[graham]

One of our members has been on the CNCC committee for years but has not communicated any goings on at
CNCC to my club,and has even said he is NOT representing us!

Yet, according to the constitution:

The committee shall consist of fourteen members, each of whom will represent a different full member club.

Perhaps your club should formally approach CNCC to discuss whether he should be allowed to stand again? Maybe those standing for election or re-election should be obliged to obtain and present written authority from the club that they purport to represent?

Just a thought. If, I'm allowed to have thoughts about this, that is.

 

[darren]

Ricard, it is nice of you to speak on my behalf, but I must have been out when you rang to check if I was happy.  I have also checked my emails to see if you contacted me that way. No email.

So just for the record I am not happy.

If you had checked with anyone in my club they could have told you this. I am never happy.

 

[Jon]

What about These three against the other almost three thousand cavers on this UK Caving forum and elsewhere who are obviously happy with the officers of BCA and CNCC and Welsh, Derbyshire  and Southern equivalents.


Richard

Phenomenal logic Richard. So not posting implies consent?

 

[Bottlebank]

The sheer number of comments and emails I've had from people watching this discussion - none supporting the CNCC - suggests that many more than three people unhappy.

 

[richardg]

What about These three against the other almost three thousand cavers on this UK Caving forum and elsewhere who are obviously happy with the officers of BCA and CNCC and Welsh, Derbyshire  and Southern equivalents.


Richard

Phenomenal logic Richard. So not posting implies consent?

More of a quiet gratitude 

Richard

 

[crickleymal]

As one of the 3000 cavers I have to say I know nothing of the CNCC and probably never will. My silence implies ignorance of the merits of both sides.