Observations on CNCC meeting

[exsumper]

If they've kept it secret from their own member clubs, I doubt you'll get an honest answer from them on here!  We're still waiting for answers about paying for access to Leck Fell.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Thankyou, that's two very good points. I know there is a very long thread on here about paying for caving and the CNCC but I'm new on here and I haven't read it all yet. The CNCC have got into a big muddle over a number of serious issues.

If you are a member of a CNCC full member club then please ensure your club and your CNCC rep is aware of what is going on.

Simon Wilson, EPC CNCC rep.

 

[exsumper]

Thank you Simon:

The statistical probability of you receiving an answer from Kay is probably zero!
You will also find that you will not get an answer if you use the formal route either.

I asked our club secretary to write for details and answers came there not!

As Badlad found at the meeting, in common with our glorious leaders in westminster , these petty little tyrants don't like justified criticism or demands for the truth from the plebs; as for honesty 

Good luck in your attempts to get an answer! 

 

[Simon Wilson]

It is because CNCC officers won?t answer emails that I am asking this question on here and it is a question for all CNCC officers.

The Misty Mountain Mudmining Corporation (MMMMC or Mudminers) was formed ten years ago. Just about anybody digging in the three counties area has been invited to join and it now has a considerable number of members. The cooperation and collective effort of the Mudminers has resulted in significant new discoveries on Leck Fell and this has been well publicised. With reference to Leck, if any group of people deserve the name ?the digging fraternity? it is the Mudminers. Most Mudminers are also in caving clubs. The EPC is one such CNCC member club who are active on Leck Fell and almost exclusively involved in digging. The Mudminers were never informed about the change of the system for issuing permits and neither were the member clubs.

Clearly, when the CNCC minutes refer to ?permits issued to the digging fraternity? the fraternity referred to is not the Mudminers and is not the digging clubs, not that I think it would be right to give privileged access to permits to selected member clubs.

And so my question is: Exactly who are ?the digging fraternity? referred to in the minutes?

Simon Wilson, EPC CNCC rep.

 

[braveduck]

I note that the  minutes of the last CNCC meeting have not been published yet.

 

[Alex]

Whatever happens with the permits, keep up the good work, Simon W & crew.

 

[Badlad]

I note that the  minutes of the last CNCC meeting have not been published yet.

It is now over three weeks since the meeting and no minutes published.  Normally this may not be much of an issue but with the CNCC AGM in under four weeks it should be given more of a priority.

For well over a month now, some member clubs have been asking for the list of full member clubs of the CNCC.  This has not been forthcoming with no plausible reason being offered and rather unhelpful responses given by the officers.

What has come to light is the powerhouse of the CNCC.  This is represented by clubs such as;

Lancashire Underground Group,
CNCC Technical Group,
Dent House Speleological Society
Elysium Underground Group

A web search of the above speaks volumes.

 

[Simon Wilson]

The CNCC was founded in 1963 by eight large and well-established clubs of the day and I have represented two of those founding clubs at the CNCC. EPC has an elected officer called the CNCC Representative who has a duty to truly represent the views of the 35 present club members at the CNCC and produce a report and is answerable to the club. I canvass opinion and discuss CNCC matters around my club, ask any of them. That is the model of democracy on which the CNCC was based.

There are 55 full member clubs who can vote at the AGM and from those the AGM elects up to 14 committee member clubs who can vote at committee meetings. All officers have to be a member of a committee member club and have the vote for that club.

There is no record in the published minutes of the CNCC Technical Group ever being elected onto the committee. I have repeatedly questioned Glenn Jones, who claims to represent the CNCC TG, about how the CNCC TG can claim to be on the committee and he has refused to answer. I have also questioned whether or not it can ligitimately claim to be a caving club at all and eligible to be even a member club. This was his reply: "Why do you think it?s not  a caving club? It?s got members. It?s got T shirts. It?s got car stickers. It goes caving. It has meetings. It has Christmas Dinners.  Which bit is not a caving club?" -----------  :-\-----

Maybe other people might like to question the representatives of the Lancashire Underground Group, Elysium Underground Group and the Dent House Speleologocal Society about their clubs.

 

[Glenn]

There is no record in the published minutes of the CNCC Technical Group ever being elected onto the committee. I have repeatedly questioned Glenn Jones, who claims to represent the CNCC TG, about how the CNCC TG can claim to be on the committee and he has refused to answer.

That is absolutely not true. I replied to you on 28th of January at 16.50 and told you where you would find the information you asked for. You also called the CNCC TG "dodgy" and when I asked you to explain what you meant, you refused to either refute or justify that accusation. It was then that I told you that I could see no further point in continuing the email exchange.

 

[Simon Wilson]

This is exactly the last two emails between us:

From Glenn Jones
>quote>
Hi Simon,

"I'll agree to disagree on that one."

If you are not prepared to justify or retract your accusation that the CNCC TG is ?dodgy? I have to assume that you are being deliberately provocative. I am not prepared to waste my time with anyone who cannot justify their position and see no reason to continue this exchange.

Glenn


From: Simon Wilson
Sent: 28 January 2014 18:09
To: Glenn Jones
Cc: 'Les Sykes'
Subject: Re: CNCC voting

Dear Glenn,

I'll agree to disagree on that one.

Please answer the question: How has the list of the committee come to change when there has not been an election of the committee since 2007?

Regards, Simon.
>end quote>

So Glenn, Please answer the question: How has the list of the committee come to change when there has not been an election of the committee since 2007?

 

[Hammy]

I've just checked the BCA Member Clubs list and neither CNCC TG nor Dent House SS appear on it.

 

[Simon Wilson]

I suggest you ask the BCA Membership Secretary for an updated list.

 

[damian]

I suggest you ask the BCA Membership Secretary for an updated list.

To save you the effort, the list on the BCA site is up to date ... I know because I last updated it on Saturday morning.

 

[graham]

I've just checked the BCA Member Clubs list and neither CNCC TG nor Dent House SS appear on it.

Is it a condition of membership of CNCC to be a member of BCA? It is not the case for membership of other regional councils.  I suppose it would be surprising if most of the executive came from non BCA clubs,  though.

 

[Hammy]

'Only BCA registered clubs may be issued permits' (CNCC website)

'It?s got members. It?s got T shirts. It?s got car stickers. It goes caving. It has meetings. It has Christmas Dinners'

But it can't go caving in the caves to which it controls access!

Oh dear.

 

[graham]

Umm.

I suppose it is possible to be a member club and not need to get permits as all club members are in other member clubs.  But it does seem rather strange.  Especially for committee members.

 

[exsumper]

There is no record in the published minutes of the CNCC Technical Group ever being elected onto the committee. I have repeatedly questioned Glenn Jones, who claims to represent the CNCC TG, about how the CNCC TG can claim to be on the committee and he has refused to answer.

That is absolutely not true. I replied to you on 28th of January at 16.50 and told you where you would find the information you asked for. You also called the CNCC TG "dodgy" and when I asked you to explain what you meant, you refused to either refute or justify that accusation. It was then that I told you that I could see no further point in continuing the email exchange.

Everyones favourite sport's back on!  Watching Glen Jones trying to walk in a straight line!

 

[Glenn]

There is no record in the published minutes of the CNCC Technical Group ever being elected onto the committee. I have repeatedly questioned Glenn Jones, who claims to represent the CNCC TG, about how the CNCC TG can claim to be on the committee and he has refused to answer.

That is absolutely not true. I replied to you on 28th of January at 16.50 and told you where you would find the information you asked for. You also called the CNCC TG "dodgy" and when I asked you to explain what you meant, you refused to either refute or justify that accusation. It was then that I told you that I could see no further point in continuing the email exchange.

Everyones favourite sport's back on!  Watching Glen Jones trying to walk in a straight line!

Hi Alex, many thanks for reminding me why I gave up on this forum last time (never let the truth get in the way of a juicy scandal eh?)

'bye all

 

[Pitlamp]

"Everyone's", exsumper? Are you absolutely certain of that?

Even if allegations made in this topic have some foundation (and I honestly don't know either way) the people who seem to be the object of criticism do a lot of good work. I'm not interested in taking "sides" here but it would be nice to see a slightly more balanced discussion of the situation.

 

[Jon]

Even if allegations made in this topic have some foundation (and I honestly don't know either way) the people who seem to be the object of criticism do a lot of good work. I'm not interested in taking "sides" here but it would be nice to see a slightly more balanced discussion of the situation.

I agree it needs to be more balanced but that requires the CNCC to join in.