Thought I had...interested in thoughts/ideas from those in research...

I still have yet to find a stable research job. But I am trained, degreed, etc. Why not do my own research (I have done some already, see the phos thread I started, but what I did was cheap and easy....this...wouldn't be).

There is a cave locally. I have observed over the past two years that in one area there is delicate gypsum formation, what we call gypsum snow, that coats the rocks and walls, however, it comes and goes. This particular cave sucks air in the winter, bringing in the cold outside air, and lowering the cave air temp in the coldest months (around freezing to about 5c) and changing the airflow. This is when the gypsum snow forms. The wamer months this cave blows air, so the cave air temp is higher (about 14c) and the current is obviously different since it's blowing not sucking. In these warmer months, there is no gypsum snow. It vanishes. Only to return the next winter.

Seems a perfect longterm study....I'm thinking about applying for a grant to study it. I think I can get permission from the cave owner as they are very caver friendly so that shouldn't be an issue. Figure I'd need to monitor ambient air temperature, air flow (direction and velocity, it's not called a blowing hole for nothing, it can pelt it!), and humidity. Perhaps barometric pressure too? I know there are devices for recording these things, would have to set it up for daily readings. Visit the cave often, esp when the readings change, which mean I need some sort of remote access to the readings. However there is no wifi nor cell signal at the entrance so I'm not sure how that would work.

Thoughts? Method suggestions? funding source ideas (my only idea is the NSS does offer some grant funding here and there). Equipment suggestions?

Gut feeling says relative humidity and temp would be critical factors.
The partial pressure of SOx and NOx may also be factors?
Data loggers can record large amounts of data onto memory cards which can be swapped at long intervals.
Do you have a photo of the snow, or a link to one?
How certain are you it is actually gypsum that is being formed and not some other meta stable mineral? An XRD of the stuff could be a useful part of an initial assessment.
Sounds like a good idea to me

As Brains says you can probably log many years worth of data on an SD card but I guess you are thinking that you would like to be notified of "interesting" conditions? How far is the entrance from somewhere where you can get a mobile phone (cell) signal or a broadband connection?

Wiring a com line or such to the location would not be an issue, and in fact I could route it an indirect route that people won't run across readily so there would be less chance of it being disturbed (it is a highly visited cave). However, it wouldn't do me much good I fear, as there is no cell signal much less wifi at the entrance. One has to get back to the main highway a few miles away before signal is restored. So I don't think data transmission in real time would be possible. The location, once I do it a few more times and memorize exact footsteps (ha!) could probably be speed-caved in about 10-15 minutes, although it standard takes about 30 minutes to reach the junction it forms in I've done it in about 20 before. It would be nice to be notified when conditions change (ie the day/s it changes from blowing to sucking and vice versa) but I'm not sure how, other than regular visitation during season changes. It is a well visited cave, perhaps it would be worth (since people in it do traverse around the crystal growth on a typical trip) leaving cards with my contact info so they could report presence or lack of gypsum? I'm lacking in the observation area. I don't think leaving a camera set up to take a picture every day would be that viable for a couple reasons so that's out of the question.

Humidity and temp and airflow are my gut feeling of main factors. I say airflow because the current changes, although whether this is direct or indirect by adjusting the temp I am unsure.

I guess I am not 100% certain it is gypsum. Everyone called it gypsum crystals, and when I first saw it, it looked exactly like gypsum snow that I have seen in other caves. I called it gypsum snow and now others are too.

There is a university nearby, I could look into getting access for an XRD but i have never done one before.

Here it is (a small section, it coats a good sized area) It forms on rocks on the walls and floor, but not ceiling.

The deposit appears to my ageing eyes to be little needle-like crystals (acicular habit), perhaps better compared to a hoar frost than snow? I would imagine a semiquantitative XRD would sufficient in the first instance to see if it is gypsum or another mineral, as such that should be relatively quick and cheap. A fully quant analysis would require a significant amount of material and work to give perhaps a similar result - try and discuss it with the XRD technician directly.
The problems of data acquisition/communication are another issue...

A couple of miles may be pushing it unless you have a clear signal path and ideally line of sight. Even then it all gets a bit complex, there is a thing called a GSM modem that is basically a mobile phone that can be driven automatically so you could potentially relay from the cave entrance down to a unit located where there is a cell signal and then have the GSM modem send an SMS or upload to a website. But unlicensed transmissions on the ISM bands are restricted in terms of power so it is unlikely you could reliably do much over 1km.

FWIW people have got WiFi to go a couple of miles using "cantenna" setups, but again you need line of sight.

Does anyone have Prof Gunn's details - he may be able to provide some helpful input?

It's not line of sight back to the main road. Convoluted twisting through a valley. I would really like RT data, but I just am not seeing how it's viable, at least on an affordable/doable scale.

I don't think I would call it acicular...  It's more branching than that. You know how it looks where there is a very light dusting of snow? that is really the best description I can provide. I didn't get a macro of it last year, didn't think to (it was before I came up with this idea.) There are crystals in another part of the cave I would definitely call acicular, but not these. I can probably get an image shortly, we are dipping into the colder months and the cave will start sucking air soon and the crystals will form again. Jan - Feb - March are the highest chances to see it, typically, although this winter may be colder (we've already had a few days towards freezing temps in november, which is rare-ish. Yes you can laugh now but while you laugh be aware it is back up to 24c today  )

More likely to be Mirabilite, or possibly epsomite. It regulalry forms in very dry caves such as parts of Mammoth Cave. I suggest you read Art Palmers book 'Cave Geology' or 'Cave Minerals of the World'.
Andy

I have those books, actually. I will look at them to see if they provide identification clues. I wonder if the "gypsum snow" in Mammoth wasn't gypsum snow then. Funny you should mention because that is exactly where I first learned about it.

I still think the study itself would be interesting. I have thought of another contact, there was a study done out of UAB, a uni about 2 hours away from me, that ended a little over a year ago in a different cave in this area, studying crayfish, but they have various monitoring devices they used in that study so I will probably contact the researchers there. If anything they'd have a good idea what is available here in the way of monitoring conditions, and who knows what level of interest of help they might provide. They should know who I am - they used a photo of mine when they submitted their paper and it was chosen for the journal cover.

Still quite open to more ideas/thoughts if anyone has any, this has been very helpful and I am getting a good picture of where to go from here with my idea.

Andy is correct - it is unlikely to be gypsum, which isn't especially soluble and so would not be expected to come and go with changes in humidity. You don't need an XRD analysis to eliminate gypsum; just taste some. Epsomite,mirabilite (and nitrate minerals, which do have a habit of efflorescencing nd deliquescing with changes in humidity) are all very soluble - the nitrates are bitter-tasting.

DM

Simple Flame Test should identify what you're working with, Microscope should give you the crystal lattice and some extra clue, then you can put together some application proposal for funding.
Variables include air flow, ambient temperature and humidity, altitude and region, then get your research plan together and instigate a specific project, I've seen so many proposals like this come unstuck through lack of preparation!!
  I think you could have something here Amy, just do it right!!

I'm sure someone once told me that there's an area in one of the Nenthead mines where epsomite crystals periodically form and disappear...

If there are lots of areas of crystals, it may be scientifically vaid / ethically vaid to take some home in a sealed container and subject them to different temperature and humidity regiemes?

AR said:

I'm sure someone once told me that there's an area in one of the Nenthead mines where epsomite crystals periodically form and disappear...

Click to expand...

There's a bit of Small Cleugh Mine where the amount of candy floss-like crystalline growths reduced an extreme amount between one visit and another a couple of years later. It would be interesting to see if they had re-gained their original size again at some point.

You mean these ones?

Epsomite Crystals by Peak Instruction, on Flickr

There is an area in the mines at Nenthead accessed via the Smallcleugh horse level which has (had?) some good examples of these Epsomite formations which can in places reach over a metre in length and can be seen here http://www.aditnow.co.uk/photo/Smallcleugh-Lead-Mine-User-Album-Image-62948/

A few years ago now, the whereabouts of these formations was little known and seldom visited. I recall that on one occasion, having been to see these formations, we returned a few weeks later and found that other quite separate areas of the mine which had never shown much sign of these formations, was now showing clear evidence of their growth; in some cases they were growing in the shapes which clearly coincided with footprints. The assumption here is that they had been transferred through the mine using wellies as a vector.

There are also in the area a number of gypsum mines and whilst neither myself or any of my acquaintances have ever, ever, ever been in them due to access restrictions, ever, I have it on good authority that these types of crystals are not present in these mines.