For the record, are these entrances on CRoW land or not?
Isn't there some rule or other about interfering with natural features on CRoW land?
Well, Brains, here are the respective listshttp://www.cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk/member_clubs.htmlhttp://www.pdcmg.org.uk/com.htmSo who is at risk of suspension, by way of your suggestion? And if a club that opposes the blockage wanted to remain in CCC would they be best advised to leave PDCMG? Be careful what you wish for!
Peter: There used to be a complete spectrum of involvement in access by regional councils from the CNCC - set up exclusively to mediate access - to CCC - renouncing any involvement; the DCA seems to have been a happy medium. Meanwhile, most cavers didn't really know but, not unreasonably, probably assumed (as BCA seems to have, too) that they could all act similarly, and on any topic involving caves and cavers in their region. Anyway, back on topic...
Still little discussion of the wilderness conservation concept applied to Draenen in their little-read Conservation Policy and Guidelines [ http://www.pdcmg.org.uk/plancons2003.htm ]Graham pointed out that this seems to be largely a transatlantic import (along with the example of OFD, which is highly debateable), and Wikipedia gives a good summary of the concepts as discussed for the surface [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilderness ]. What is not emphasised there is the idea of remoteness, which I think is what its proponents in PDCMG espouse - their stand would have all entrances to the Three Counties system blocked except for Low Douk. Would that be reasonable?
Another parallel some have suggested is the climbing community leaving some crags without any fixed aids - ie maintaining a psychological edge (there is an aesthetic appeal too, I suppose) - in this case through physical endurance required to get to the far reaches rather than explicit risk. Is that desirable?
But the last paragraph of the Wikipedia article perhaps sums up (for avoidable voids like Draenen) one extreme while skewing the other when it says: "applying any control to define nature unavoidably voids the very freedom and independence of human control that defines wilderness"
I can here the frantic digging noise of entrenching tools from 200 miles away!
Quote from: bograt on July 06, 2014, 06:38:49 pmIsn't there some rule or other about interfering with natural features on CRoW land?Yes, I believe there is.
Does it work for the owner? Who is going to find out?
Quote from: Peter Burgess on July 06, 2014, 08:55:50 pmDoes it work for the owner? Who is going to find out?It's a compromise - don't deflect from Graham's question Ian
..... my view is that cavers need to work with landowners, antagonising them is not in our best interests.
If the landowner really feels strongly that Drws Cefn should be sealed then he should undertake the task himself. Cavers dig caves open, they don't fill them in.
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