Idiot watch

[royfellows]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss, and hopefully, maybe remedy somehow, the activities of those who post what we call "clickbait" videos on Youtube. These may have titles such as "Exploring very dangerous mine", "We nearly got killed doing this", the list goes on. Obviously, this could well attract the attention of people such as landowners, or officialdom in a way that lead to loss of access for all. Of course, worse still are those who go underground without any head protection, lark around with spray cans etc, and then upload footage of them doing it.

[T pot 2]

Sadly it will deteriorate, aerosol markings (already seen in giants) string reeled out for finding ones way back to grass, we however ought to visit how caving began, persons with interest, fairy, martel, pilkington, et, al,
Who started with exploration of the subtraenia
using primitive marking of passage with wax droplets from candles in order to find their way back, in larger caves cairns would be used, sometimes carbide soot from a lamp would mark arrows on walls.
I'm not condoning any of the way marking from the past nor the present, without guidence we have all started from somwhere
😜

[RobinGriffiths]

You don't get 21,000 subscribers by posting staid mine videos. There are what?, 5,000 ish cavers/mine explorers in the UK. If you're after subscriptions, you need to fish in a bigger sea, and that means you have to give them the bait.

[pwhole]

I find the whole idea of getting subscribers to follow someone's 'life' as a source of income rather distasteful, even when I know how much there is to be made and could probably do it myself to a profitable quality. To be honest though, you'd probably make more money wanking off in your bedroom for pr0n sites, and which would be a lot safer too, as long as you didn't resort to extremes and need 'rescuing'. So now a call-out is actually a safe word.

If it could be claimed that 'dangerous' or 'exciting' mine exploration videos offered a genuine 'service' I might be more impressed, but they don't - and there's so many doing it now I struggle to see the worth of watching any of them, especially when what I'm doing myself is far more 'dangerous'. You would have struggled to fit a camera into the pitches we were were doing on Sunday they were so tight (and loose). But that's why you won't find it on YouTube, or even which mine it was on here. Having seen one of our informal exploring groups turned into a 'brand' for profit, and which now has no original members as a result (the New Originals?), I'm less and less inclined to share my projects on open forums, which is a shame. But I'd rather keep the sites preserved and have lives kept intact, and try to make my living with my skills, rather than selling videos of them. I'm always skint! But I do enjoy myself.

[royfellows]

I bet its easy to live with yourself though, Paul?

[ttxela2]

Interesting to read through this thread, especially as I make the odd mine video myself.

Pwhole makes some good points about self promotion and motivation, now my channel is not solely about mines, its more about motorhomes, although they do feature occasionally. I just like the whole film making process, I remember dabbling in it as a kid when you actually had to use proper film, it's much easier to get a better result these days!

Cards on the table though, I'm like many others in that I'm looking for something other than the 9-5 drudge. I used to really enjoy my work but the world has changed over the years and what used to be a great job doing practical stuff that 'mattered' with a great bunch of mates has transformed into a largely deskbound joyless solitary battle against bureaucracy. So the prospect of perhaps making an income from making films about what I enjoy doing has great appeal. I may never be able to leave my job to do it full time but the prospect of dropping to part time and doing more of what I enjoy is looking achievable in the near to mid term.

On the occasions I do show some underground footage I try to be careful to set a non sensationalised tone. When I do I'm trying to promote an appreciation and understanding of the value and beauty of these places. Ioan is a good chap and I quite enjoyed the video but I agree some of the sensationalising is not necessarily ideal.

I do think more balanced informative videos that get people previously unaware to appreciate the importance and value of historic workings are a good thing. As an ex-target pistol shooter I know how easily a minority interest that many people were unaware of and already thought wasn’t legal can be shut down on in the aftermath of an unfortunate incident. Often when talking to people about exploring old mines I get the comment “oh, are you allowed to do that….”

Unfortunately it’s the ‘this is so dangerous, we’re all going to die!’ approach that pulls in the views.

[royfellows]

Yes, and also gets the place sealed up, as as actually happened.

[ttxela2]

Yes, and also gets the place sealed up, as as actually happened.

Indeed, I'm aware of a few now 

[Cantclimbtom]

Does it help things if people can offer to the landowners to seal the sites up if they start attracting too much attention (stainless bar, drilled holes and out of date resin) and place a lock over it with access via what the cavers here seem to call the Derbyshire key system - which I think means you need carry a large sized adjustable spanner. That way it is sealed/safeguarded as the land owner sees it for liability, but won't actually keep anyone out who is carrying a spanner. Sounds like the best of both worlds

[Jenny P]

It does depend on what the general view of the local landowners and tenants is and also, very often, on the type of land involved: open moorland well away from footpaths, as opposed to farmland with heavily used footpaths close to cave entrances or shafts. 

We are extremely lucky in Derbyshire that the big adjustable spanner (the Derbyshire key) is widely known about and commonly accepted, even by two of the large estates which own land which has caves on it.  Only a very few owners insist on a lock and key system for very specific reasons. 

Other regions are not so lucky and, if the local feeling among the owners is that they want a lock and key system because that's what everyone expects, then cavers are stuck with it. 

On the other hand, if your region's caves are largely on open moorland (that is the type of land affected by the CRoW Act) you may well be able to convince the landowners that there is no need for gate, lock, or anything else like that.

[royfellows]

I think that the attitude can vary between caves and mines. You say "cave" and you possibly get "Mmm", you say "Disused mine" and raised eyebrows and hand wringing can start.
Local farmers around mid Wales are generally OK with us, I am, on first name terms with a few of them, one is good friend, but other sites are owned by Welsh Government and fall under CAL access, a situation were we need to tread more carefully.

Whatever anyone may think of me, I put the CAL agreement first and foremost, its for the benefit of all, and if you-know-what was to hit the fan, I would throw the person or persons responsible to the wolves without hesitation. I have same attitude to cambrian Mines Trust which I worked very hard to make happen. This last paragraph is in no way aimed at any particular individual or individuals, its just a statement of my personal attitude.

[pwhole]

Cards on the table though, I'm like many others in that I'm looking for something other than the 9-5 drudge. I used to really enjoy my work but the world has changed over the years and what used to be a great job doing practical stuff that 'mattered' with a great bunch of mates has transformed into a largely deskbound joyless solitary battle against bureaucracy. So the prospect of perhaps making an income from making films about what I enjoy doing has great appeal. I may never be able to leave my job to do it full time but the prospect of dropping to part time and doing more of what I enjoy is looking achievable in the near to mid term.

I certainly wouldn't want to suggest that folks shouldn't try to make videos for money, for all the reasons mentioned above - and there are probably some semi-conscious sour grapes on my part that so many people are now doing something I trained to do for cash - and from my perspective, not always doing it very well, mainly due to the easy availability of technology and social media giving them an easy platform. So I'm trying to be even-handed! My gripe really is the added 'danger' aspect that these videos purport to give access to - not least as it's true in many cases, but it usually doesn't help our cause or interest at all to advertise it as such - it's certainly not why I got into it. Danger's something to be managed, rather than embraced or monetised. And gravity's a bitch

[ttxela2]

Cards on the table though, I'm like many others in that I'm looking for something other than the 9-5 drudge. I used to really enjoy my work but the world has changed over the years and what used to be a great job doing practical stuff that 'mattered' with a great bunch of mates has transformed into a largely deskbound joyless solitary battle against bureaucracy. So the prospect of perhaps making an income from making films about what I enjoy doing has great appeal. I may never be able to leave my job to do it full time but the prospect of dropping to part time and doing more of what I enjoy is looking achievable in the near to mid term.

I certainly wouldn't want to suggest that folks shouldn't try to make videos for money, for all the reasons mentioned above - and there are probably some semi-conscious sour grapes on my part that so many people are now doing something I trained to do for cash - and from my perspective, not always doing it very well, mainly due to the easy availability of technology and social media giving them an easy platform. So I'm trying to be even-handed! My gripe really is the added 'danger' aspect that these videos purport to give access to - not least as it's true in many cases, but it usually doesn't help our cause or interest at all to advertise it as such - it's certainly not why I got into it. Danger's something to be managed, rather than embraced or monetised. And gravity's a bitch

Indeed! The good thing about the availability of a platform like Youtube and the availability of good cheap cameras and other technology is that anyone can have a go at doing it.

The bad thing about it is that.....anyone can have a go at doing it 

[ttxela2]

obvious clickbait titles I think I might think some up to improve my views  , people cant help themselves if you title it up fancy ,it even makes them watch till the end in case they miss what the clickbait mentioned . Its YT tactics      

Another good tactic, no matter what the subject matter of the video, is to wear a skimpy bikini in the thumbnail. Sadly this hasn't worked for me yet.......

[ChrisJC]

Another good tactic, no matter what the subject matter of the video, is to wear a skimpy bikini in the thumbnail. Sadly this hasn't worked for me yet.......

Bloody annoying that is. Watching 30 mins of utter dross and there is no gratification to be seen in the entire thing! It's taken years for the penny to drop.

Chris.

[Cantclimbtom]

I did see a tongue in cheek take on these video titles a while ago from Caver Keith (Keith Edwards). He had a video with "extreme" in the title that it featured the elite of Dudley's extreme cavers.

[lumenchild]

Now now children, let's not pick on the people who are only just learning,

I have spoken to them in the past and they just need some guidance, I'm sure if someone takes the time to teach them SRT and rope rigging properly, they will from that point forward, understand how to explore safely.
Some of us here have probably used sewn up seatbelts as harnesses and climbed maypoles and electron ladders without a belay in the past, We all started somewhere we weren't born as pros.

well, Roy Fellows was born as a pro but that's about it,

With that being said, If they think that's a scary traverse, they wouldn't stand a chance on battle-axe traverse in lost johns     

[ttxela2]

I have been watching more of these videos, I was previously put off by the titles. They are indeed very good, and the clickbait sensationalism belittles the content.

What an unfortunate business!

The problem with them being a team effort perhaps.

Just a 'devils advocate' type thought - if the clickbaityness gets them to a wider audience of the type that watch 'Exploring with lighters' might that be a good thing in some ways.....  

[royfellows]

Yes, exploring using proper kit, hard hats etc, I see your point.

[PeteHall]

...Risk Assess it as "Dangerous", proceed to use it, and then upload a video of then doing just this to Youtube to advertise it!

I suspect it was risk assessed as "safe", used with confidence in its safety, then described as "dangerous" in the video title simply as clickbait to increase views.

[ttxela2]

...Risk Assess it as "Dangerous", proceed to use it, and then upload a video of then doing just this to Youtube to advertise it!

I suspect it was risk assessed as "safe", used with confidence in its safety, then described as "dangerous" in the video title simply as clickbait to increase views.

I too suspect this is the case, watching the video when the traverse is reached it is actually described as 'quite simple' and 'not too bad'. The clickbait element is only really in the thumbnail and description.

Being pedantic it might be more accurate to describe the traverse as 'hazardous', the drop is clearly substantial enough to to cause real harm if you fell so there is a clear hazard. It would be inaccurate to describe it as 'risky' since if the traverse is rigged well and used correctly there is no risk of harm from the hazard.

Dangerous has a less clear definition, I found a few, but this one seems reasonable;

dangerous, hazardous, precarious, perilous, risky mean bringing or involving the chance of loss or injury. dangerous applies to something that may cause harm or loss unless dealt with carefully.

Like it or not I think thats a fair description of a traverse across a stope in an abandoned mine.

Now of course the general viewer will not be thinking in these terms and will be attracted simply by the prospect of watching something that is exciting because of the "danger"

I broadly agree that we don't want to be presented as adrenaline junky risk takers however a bit of titillation to attract a wider audience to a video that ultimately shows responsible exploring might not be the worst thing  a general viewer who watches a few of these and then goes back to watching EWF videos may find themselves less impressed 

[sinker]

...Risk Assess it as "Dangerous", proceed to use it, and then upload a video of then doing just this to Youtube to advertise it!

I suspect it was risk assessed as "safe", used with confidence in its safety, then described as "dangerous" in the video title simply as clickbait to increase views.

Just thinking out loud but I'm wondering if this is the line of thinking 

"Tongue-in-cheek" you mean...?

Possible!

Hopefully that is how it was intended 

[Fulk]

I suppose:

‘Amazing mine opened via traverse that would have been dangerous had we not rigged it properly’

doesn’t have the same ‘ring’ to it.

[royfellows]

Yes but would make more sense and not attract trouble.

How about "Amazing mine discovered by difficult and challenging ropework"

[royfellows]

 all is forgiven, even EWF.

Just check this out


I have just come to the rather fatalist conclusion I am wasting my time. These idiots deserve the "Golden Coffin" award. They beat everyone else hands down.
Its Watersaw Mine in Derbyshire, its even a rather sensitive site.
Thinking about it, when everywhere is sealed up the videos will be all we have left.