Finding pitches already rigged

paul

Moderator
A club visiting our club cottage in Derbyshire were complaining about finding a second lot of ropes rigged in Oxlow by another group while they were on an Oxlow/Maskhill exchange the other week. They said that the ropes were getting tangled and made it awkward.

What do you do when they get to a cave and fine all the pitches already rigged:

1) Just continue using the gear already there and hope you exit before the cavers who rigged it.

2) Rig the pitch with your own gear and take care to avoid tangles.

3) Give up and try another cave.
 

SamT

Moderator
Bimble, Bimble - I dont know what to do, mummy - the pitch is already rigged and now my ropes tangled, its not fair, the guide book never told me this might happen, sniffel, I want to go home, my knee hurts, boo hoo hoo etc etc.
- see 'what makes a proper caver' thread - :roll:

seriously though - a good question

Like all these things - it depends - you've just got to use your noddle.

With ladders , it used to be the case that you'd use the ladder already rigged, and leave yours at the top. if the other party returned and de rigged - it was an unwritten rule that you dropped the other ladder back down the pitch.

With ropes - its not quite so easy, Depends on how
a - many ropes are already rigged. (see 'bar pot'),
b - the ease of rigging another rope (see 'garlands vs bitch pitch JH'),
c - the nature of the cave beyond, i.e - are you likely to bump into the other parties.( 'see peak cavern')

You can asses how busy the cave will be by the car park. At oxlow - you'd definatley know that there would already be people in there and you could maybe choose another cave (see 'getting up really early to bag the cave')

I heard a hilarious tale the other day about an incident down oxlow years ago when after large saturday trip (30 odd people) , Gordons mum phoned up on tuesday to ask if anybody knew where he was.
'I thought he came out with you'- "Nah he came out with you" - opps.

Poor kid was sat at the bottom of ladder down from pilgrims way singing hymns when they found him.

3 days!!!! :shock:
 
J

Jonathan T

Guest
If there's one group then option 2. If there's more than one group and there's an alternative route, then use the other route. If there's more than one group and no alternative route, option 3. Option 1 - never!
 

bubba

Administrator
1. No way, ever unless I know the other party and we've pre-arranged this. Wouldn't want to end up practising for songs of praise :wink:

2. If the other ropework looks competently arranged and it's not too crowded then yes. If it looks like it's been set up badly then I'd think twice because they might mess up my ropes afterwards.

3. Better to do that than press on regardless.
 

paul

Moderator
SamT said:
Bimble, Bimble - I dont know what to do, mummy - the pitch is already rigged and now my ropes tangled, its not fair, the guide book never told me this might happen, sniffel, I want to go home, my knee hurts, boo hoo hoo etc etc.

Well they were from Mendip... :wink:
 

Brendan

Active member
I would never use another persons rope - you are just asking for trouble.
Rig your own, use an alternative way or go somewhere else.

Just a question - when someone else has already rigged and I am then trying to rig, I put my rope under theirs. I was told this was the 'polite' thing to do, even if it is a complete pain in the arse to actually rig the thing. However, whenever I have been down a cave, and someon else has then followed they have rigged over my rope, meaning it is harder for me to derig. Is it just me being too nice, or does anyone else rig under?
 

Brendan

Active member
If they were from Mendip are you sure they weren't just surprisd at seeing rope! Confusing things these caves you can stand up in. :D
 

dunc

New member
Would never do option one unless there was some agreement between the groups beforehand.

Just a question - when someone else has already rigged and I am then trying to rig, I put my rope under theirs. I was told this was the 'polite' thing to do, even if it is a complete pain in the arse to actually rig the thing. However, whenever I have been down a cave, and someon else has then followed they have rigged over my rope, meaning it is harder for me to derig. Is it just me being too nice, or does anyone else rig under?
I would aim for option two and would always aim to rig under, as like you say Brendan its the polite thing to do..

Would only consider option three if things were really desperate.. one time when I went to Sell Gill for an exchange trip, both routes were fairly busy and having walked that far to get to the cave and there not being too much in the way of viable alternatives in the area we put up with a slow spaghetti trip!
:sleep:
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Confusing things these caves you can stand up in.

You mean there are caves where you can actually stand up?... I don't believe it.

And what's all this talk of "rope". What is rope? Please enlighten me.
 

SamT

Moderator
:LOL:

Come on - Ive been in GB.

Probably going to be down in priddy over the first may bank holiday. Big Eldon team coming down. :D
 

paul

Moderator
Strange how things happen... After posting the original message about people's thoughts on getting to a pitch and finding it already rigged, I was on a trip down Whalf Pipe Climbing Shaft (Knotlow area, Derbys.) on saturday and after unscrewing the nut and opening the shaft lid, found the pitsch already rigged!

However, judging from the amount of mud on the rope (plus the fact that the lid was screwed down), it had obviously been left in-situ while a dig is going on.

No problems rigging our own rope as well though (which is what I would normally do).

A group from TSG had got to Knotlow Triangle before us but they were going down the Engine Shaft luckily.
 
H

Huw Groucutt

Guest
On a trip in Pwll Dwfn (i.e. Wales only SRT trip) recently we got there and found it already rigged, looked as though the maillons etc had a layer of rust over them so the person rigging out ropes unrigged the other ropes. Unfortunatly half way through the trip another group arrived a bit pissed off that we'd derigged their stuff, which they had apparantly done the night before!
 

SamT

Moderator
As a general rule you should never touch anyone else's gear - you never know when or why its been placed there. Use it if you are condident that the other parties wont mind and wont leave you stranded. Otherwise do you best to rig your own kit around theirs. Failing that - find another cave to visit.
 

paul

Moderator
The entrance drops steeply down over boulders to the head of the first pitch where there is a stemple which did not, however, give the pot its name. It is possible to climb down in the narrow rift for about 4m to a ledge, where the pitch proper drops away. The squeeze at the top of the pitch (0.2m) is best negotiated by keeping out from the ledge as far as possible, but the shaft soon opens out and drops into a chamber with a rubble floor. Three metres below the ledge a shale band has caused a small 'gallery' to form around the shaft, but it quickly becomes too low in all directions

It is worth recording that Mike Wooding free-climbed out this shaft following a lone exploration trip in the Far Waters in 1971, after discovering that the CPC had pulled up their ladder he had made use of for the descent.

Quoted from http://www.braemoor.co.uk/cavingtrip/bar/bar1.shtml
 

Joel Corrigan

New member
Oh God: not these people again? Never posted on this site before, so here goes....
Let me set the record straight about the Oxlow double rope crisis (NOT). A group of students and a few hangers-on were staying at the TSG for the weekend and opted for a Maskhill/Oxlow exchange. Finding a group already there was not seen as a reason to go to Nettle or anywhere else, but merely meant taking extra care not to kick anything down the shafts. First-time rigging for one, and the other rigger was very rusty.
Later on, a member of the TSG and I followed on in Maskhill to check on their progress and criticise the rigging if necessary. I dropped down the two sets of rope and was disappointed to find that one set of ropes were rigged in a very amateurish manner, whilst the other set were fine. Imagine my joy, therefore, when I then realised that the duff rigging belonged to the other group and not the youngsters!
We joined the students who were waiting at the top of the last pitch for the other club (Mendip based, beginning with "C", ending with "S", six letters missing in the middle!). The only bloke who was remotely friendly was the poor guy doing the de-rigging, and that was probably because the students had to help him anyway. Right bunch of grumbly beards. Gather the other team had words with their "rivals" as well.
I wouldn't even have bothered posting anything about this non-event had one of their number not had a go at one of the younger members once back at the surface. Cheeky bugger. I wonder if he'd have been so brave if he'd seen one of the older cavers in the group?
It didn't stop there, either. On a rescue down JH on the Sunday night, some of the other rescuers had been hearing their tales of misery all weekend. What a bunch of drips. I suggest that these people leave their own hut more often, as finding other groups down caves is not uncommon. Worse things can happen than having to put up with someone else's rope.
My final suggestion is that people who rig traverse ropes at ankle height don't really have much credibility when it comes to criticising other people's rigging. Shocking stuff.
So, grumbly cavers, find a good SRT manual, stoke the fire, light your pipes, empty your poo-bags, pop a Valium, and stop having a go at the youngsters who are going to be the explorers of the future. If you want to be alone in a cave then go and find one and keep it secret for years (or screw up access). Isn't that what your lot did in the past? Get a grip. End of rant. Coffee time for me.
 

SamT

Moderator
As always - good to hear from someone who was at the scene.

We did maskill last weekend. Its not the easiest of places to rig. Especially if your legs are less that 4 foot long. Of particular annoyance were the y hangs where one p bolt is on one wall and the other is on the opposite wall - The walls being about 8 feet apart.

In order to get the angle less than 60 degrees, the resulting y hang is enormous and the knot is half way down the pitch and has gobbled up tons of rope. (even if you use alpine butterflies). On one pitch I bagged this idea and rigged off the single P (the rope was backed up to previous P's on the traverse to the pitch head and used the old deviation sling I spotted below. (attached to an old peg). Easier to rig, ascend/descend, and uses up less rope/time. :roll:

Who ever bolted the cave would have been far better replacing the peg with a P bolt for a deviaton and putting a neat twin P Y hang off one wall (which is made of the most solid stone Ive seen in the peak.)
 
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