Ropes and Crawl ways ???

[JAshley73]

Curious to hear how people handle crawling with their ropes. We were at a particularly "tough" multi-drop cave last weekend. I believe there are 5 pitches to rig inside the cave. Trouble is, there's a rough crawl way right after the first pitch, where all of the gear has to be taken through. In short, it sucked...

Going in, I I had my regular caving pack, a separate pack with rigging gear, a 75-foot 10mm rope, and a 40-foot 10mm rope. I wore both ropes in a coil.

Coming out, I managed to stuff the incredibly stiff 40-footer into the rigging pack, and pushed it and the 75-footer ahead of me through the crawl way. Then drug my pack behind me. I don't know if it was any better, really... The bigger pack was one less thing to "push" ahead of me, but it was heavier, and bulkier.

I've gone back and forth about weather a real rope bag would be better, or not.

Thoughts? How do others prefer to handle their ropes through crawl ways?



I feel like every trip recently (few and far between albeit) has me rethinking my gear, each time... This is just one gear question that I'm pondering...

 

[hannahb]

In a tacklesack or rope bag, always, even on caves with only vertical sections. I'm at a loss to why you would do anything else!

Although I hear your ropes are a lot stiffer so maybe that's why.

 

[Badlad]

Ropes are generally carried in bags over here. Fed into the bag, knot in end of course, in the right order for pitches. American ropes are often very stiff (in my experience) so not very good for bagging compared to most of the ropes available in Europe. I'd easily expect to get 50-80m of rope in a standard tackle bag depending on thickness. Then you drag them through crawls on a lanyard attached to your harness or belt. Same way we would carry bags down a pitch etc. Does that help?

 

[mikem]

Get other people to carry some of it...

 

[langcliffe]

Going in, I I had my regular caving pack, a separate pack with rigging gear, a 75-foot 10mm rope, and a 40-foot 10mm rope. I wore both ropes in a coil.

This is reminiscent of caving in the 1960s, with three or four coiled electron ladders around one's arms, and a couple of ropes around one's shoulders. Thank goodness for the development of Alpine SRT techniques!

 

[Cantclimbtom]

Get other people to carry it...

Fixed it for you.

 

[andrewmcleod]

Curious to hear how people handle crawling with their ropes. We were at a particularly "tough" multi-drop cave last weekend. I believe there are 5 pitches to rig inside the cave. Trouble is, there's a rough crawl way right after the first pitch, where all of the gear has to be taken through. In short, it sucked...

Sounds perfectly normal over here

Bringing coils of fat stiff rope not in a bag is simply not a good plan in a cave with even the smallest amount of actual 'proper' caving. We pack our ropes into bags, starting with stopper knot(s) and then packing it in so it can be pulled out as it is used. In many European caves, trying to mess around unpacking coils while rigging is just unnecessary suffering. As is bringing 10mm, of course (but this is more normal if using club ropes).

We find the photos you get occasionally of US cavers heading into a cave with a massive circular coil of rope around their shoulders somewhat baffling, but I guess it makes sense if you only have easy walking to where you need to throw the rope and you don't have a lot of rebelays etc. to put in? Also I am known for getting unreasonably annoyed if anyone ever coils my rope in circles (instead of butterfly coiling) because it's a right bugger to get all the twists out afterwards!

 

[Flotsam]

In the ladder era, we often plaited ropes which would be dragged through crawls. We didn't have the luxury of rope bags.

 

[JAshley73]

Every time I make a post like this, I chuckle when I see a lot of the puzzled responses. I am quick to forget the escapingly-obvious differences between "American" caving, and "European" caving...

I guess the one thing that I ignored, that you all are so quick to point out; Yes, our ropes seem to be a lot stiffer. The rope that "ended" my trip that day was the notorious 11mm "Pit" rope, which would not even feed through a C-rigged Petzl-Stop... I opted for a bobbin that day instead of my traditional rack, as it's a little more friendly to the crawling we had to do. Big mistake.

One thing that I found "enlightening" however was how different ropes behave after getting wet and dirty. My very same stiff 10mm rope which I practice with at home, handles beautifully even with my 70lbs daughter on a Bobbin. After it was dragged through the cave... It would barely feed through the same bobbin, with my 185lbs + gear pulling on it.

I have a 40', 75', and 300' lengths of the same 10mm rope - The very popular-here, Cancord "Greenline." It's 100% polyester, has less than 1% stretch, climbs like a steel pole, and generally glides beautifully through a descender (when it's clean...)

The consensus after that trip - that my other mates were echoing too - was that we were all kind of done buying 10mm rope. They make the Greenline in 9mm, but honestly, something 8mm sounds pretty attractive too. So I'm open to suggestions.





This did lead me to messing around at home, practicing climbing & rappelling on some 7mm prussic cord. Let's just say, that I think 8mm rope might be the sweet-spot after-all...

 

[topcat]

o I am known for getting unreasonably annoyed if anyone ever coils my rope in circles (instead of butterfly coiling) because it's a right bugger to get all the twists out afterwards!

When done correctly there are no twists in a coiled rope. But my experience is with climbing rope; maybe semi static behaves differently? It all comes down to the roll of the thumb. However it seems to be a lost skill, perhaps because it had a narrow band of optimum technique.

 

[andrewmcleod]

I have a 40', 75', and 300' lengths of the same 10mm rope - The very popular-here, Cancord "Greenline." It's 100% polyester, has less than 1% stretch, climbs like a steel pole, and generally glides beautifully through a descender (when it's clean...)

The consensus after that trip - that my other mates were echoing too - was that we were all kind of done buying 10mm rope. They make the Greenline in 9mm, but honestly, something 8mm sounds pretty attractive too. So I'm open to suggestions.

This did lead me to messing around at home, practicing climbing & rappelling on some 7mm prussic cord. Let's just say, that I think 8mm rope might be the sweet-spot after-all...

So one major difference is that all 'European' (i.e. CE marked rope) semi-static rope is broadly similar (unless you are getting a speciality product like floating rope or whatever). It comes from 8.5mm up to 13mm and beyond, with UK cavers at least mostly sticking to 10mm and smaller, but it's all pure nylon semi-static rope. Our 'rope' isn't _allowed_ to be too static because (for safety reasons) even 'static' rope has to have a bit of stretch (I think so you can take a fall factor 0.3 or 0.6 fall or something without exceeding a maximum force?). This means (for example) that a single-bolt rebelay can fail and (provided there is at least 5m or so of rope above you) you shouldn't be broken in half. I suspect this would be catastrophic on a superstatic cord.

It's also not possible to get 'rope' below 8.5mm here (because of how the standard is defined, and in practice I don't think any of the 8mm cords meet the standard). You can get ropes stretchy enough to keep the minimum force low enough on the impact force parts, and you can get superstatic cords that will meet the strength requirements, but not both (and I think there might be something to do with sheath/core diameters which contradict each other or something below 8.5mm).

I would say most club rope is 10mm with a bit of 9mm in some clubs; most newer personal rope these days is _probably_ 9mm but I imagine there are plenty of people with 10mm. I have some 8.5mm and 8mm but it's really for special occasions; it's delicate stuff and I wouldn't recommend it as the mainstay of your rope choices (and going below 8mm is too exciting for me). And that's with full clean Alpine rigging i.e. the rope DOES NOT touch the rock. If you 7mm cord even briefly brushes against the rock while you prussik it will definitely explode in dramatic cinematic style. Alpine Caving Techniques has a good section on lightweight cord work, pointing out that you can't (generally) have single-bolt rebelays and even deviations need to be double anchors if failure of the deviation results in the rope touching the rock (whereas with 9mm and fatter you generally assume you'll probably make it up the pitch without immediate rope failure and can then fix the issues).

 

[andrewmcleod]

When done correctly there are no twists in a coiled rope. But my experience is with climbing rope; maybe semi static behaves differently? It all comes down to the roll of the thumb. However it seems to be a lost skill, perhaps because it had a narrow band of optimum technique.

If you are rolling a rope up into coil, and then you unroll the rope off the coil, all is well (no twists introduced on coiling or uncoiling).
If you coil a rope into an 'Alpine coil'/hand coils, but then you take off individual coils, all is still well (you introduce twists on coiling but undo them when uncoiling).
If you do cable-coiling style alternative twists ('over/under'?) then it should be OK but I've never tried it with caving rope?

If the well-meaning but untrained new caver wraps your rope up in a circle (introducing a twist with every coil), and then it gets pulled out of a bag and chucked on the floor or whatever, THE TANGLES OF DOOM.

(one of) My other pet hate(s) is ropes coiled from the middle instead of the end. Unless you are actually going to use the rope from the middle, it's just saving a little of bit of effort when coiling but you will have to completely reflake the rope (potentially risking tangles) before you use it. A well-coiled rope, laid out carefully, doesn't need re-flaking.

 

[JAshley73]

So one major difference is that all 'European' (i.e. CE marked rope) semi-static rope is broadly similar (unless you are getting a speciality product like floating rope or whatever). It comes from 8.5mm up to 13mm and beyond, with UK cavers at least mostly sticking to 10mm and smaller, but it's all pure nylon semi-static rope. Our 'rope' isn't _allowed_ to be too static because (for safety reasons) even 'static' rope has to have a bit of stretch (I think so you can take a fall factor 0.3 or 0.6 fall or something without exceeding a maximum force?). This means (for example) that a single-bolt rebelay can fail and (provided there is at least 5m or so of rope above you) you shouldn't be broken in half. I suspect this would be catastrophic on a superstatic cord.

It's also not possible to get 'rope' below 8.5mm here (because of how the standard is defined, and in practice I don't think any of the 8mm cords meet the standard). You can get ropes stretchy enough to keep the minimum force low enough on the impact force parts, and you can get superstatic cords that will meet the strength requirements, but not both (and I think there might be something to do with sheath/core diameters which contradict each other or something below 8.5mm).

I would say most club rope is 10mm with a bit of 9mm in some clubs; most newer personal rope these days is _probably_ 9mm but I imagine there are plenty of people with 10mm. I have some 8.5mm and 8mm but it's really for special occasions; it's delicate stuff and I wouldn't recommend it as the mainstay of your rope choices (and going below 8mm is too exciting for me). And that's with full clean Alpine rigging i.e. the rope DOES NOT touch the rock. If you 7mm cord even briefly brushes against the rock while you prussik it will definitely explode in dramatic cinematic style. Alpine Caving Techniques has a good section on lightweight cord work, pointing out that you can't (generally) have single-bolt rebelays and even deviations need to be double anchors if failure of the deviation results in the rope touching the rock (whereas with 9mm and fatter you generally assume you'll probably make it up the pitch without immediate rope failure and can then fix the issues).

All very good info - thank you.

For the record, I won't be planning on using the 7mm prussic cord for climbing.

 

[Samouse1]

As Andrew says, under 9mm is technical stuff that needs to be treated with a very healthy respect! I cave on 8-8.5mm a lot, but also have a good amount of 9mm, mostly because I tend to prefer "Alpine style" fast and light trips.

As a rule I don't let anyone use the rope unless I know that they are aware of the limitations and dangers of using Cords over Ropes. I'll definitely echo what Andrew said about not letting the rock even breathe on the rope, the very idea fills me with a fair amount of dread.

It's the same as other kit, it's good for some people, others don't like it, but as long as you know the limitations and benefits and use it safely then it can certainly be a very useful bit of kit.

 

[pwhole]

All our club rope is now 9mm Gleistein, and whilst more expensive (and it certainly can be quick for abseils too, so more care is required not to scorch it), the benefits of its lighter weight and constant suppleness have proved to be worth it.

 

[Fulk]

A few years ago I was at the CPC GG Winch Meet and my wife and I volunteered to de-rig Stream Passage Pot. When we got down there we found that all the tackle bags had been removed, so we had to carry out the three medium length ropes as best we could. I had forgotten what a ball-ache it is, carrying ropes like that even in easy walking passages such as those down SPP.

 

[thehungrytroglobite]

I have a 40', 75', and 300' lengths of the same 10mm rope

I usually cave on 8mm rope, it's very light and great for when you have to carry large quantities. Often my partner and I cave as a pair so with only two of us having the lightweight stuff is super helpful for caves with a lot of rope. Sometimes I cave on 8.5mm or 9mm. Generally I prefer 9mm for huge drops (for psychological reasons), but 8mm is great for caves with lots of pitches that aren't of great length

 

[JAshley73]

I usually cave on 8mm rope, it's very light and great for when you have to carry large quantities. Often my partner and I cave as a pair so with only two of us having the lightweight stuff is super helpful for caves with a lot of rope. Sometimes I cave on 8.5mm or 9mm. Generally I prefer 9mm for huge drops (for psychological reasons), but 8mm is great for caves with lots of pitches that aren't of great length

What brand/model is your 8mm rope?

 

[JAshley73]

So one major difference is that all 'European' (i.e. CE marked rope) semi-static rope is broadly similar (unless you are getting a speciality product like floating rope or whatever). It comes from 8.5mm up to 13mm and beyond, with UK cavers at least mostly sticking to 10mm and smaller, but it's all pure nylon semi-static rope. Our 'rope' isn't _allowed_ to be too static because (for safety reasons) even 'static' rope has to have a bit of stretch (I think so you can take a fall factor 0.3 or 0.6 fall or something without exceeding a maximum force?). This means (for example) that a single-bolt rebelay can fail and (provided there is at least 5m or so of rope above you) you shouldn't be broken in half. I suspect this would be catastrophic on a superstatic cord.

It's also not possible to get 'rope' below 8.5mm here (because of how the standard is defined, and in practice I don't think any of the 8mm cords meet the standard). You can get ropes stretchy enough to keep the minimum force low enough on the impact force parts, and you can get superstatic cords that will meet the strength requirements, but not both (and I think there might be something to do with sheath/core diameters which contradict each other or something below 8.5mm).

I would say most club rope is 10mm with a bit of 9mm in some clubs; most newer personal rope these days is _probably_ 9mm but I imagine there are plenty of people with 10mm. I have some 8.5mm and 8mm but it's really for special occasions; it's delicate stuff and I wouldn't recommend it as the mainstay of your rope choices (and going below 8mm is too exciting for me). And that's with full clean Alpine rigging i.e. the rope DOES NOT touch the rock. If you 7mm cord even briefly brushes against the rock while you prussik it will definitely explode in dramatic cinematic style. Alpine Caving Techniques has a good section on lightweight cord work, pointing out that you can't (generally) have single-bolt rebelays and even deviations need to be double anchors if failure of the deviation results in the rope touching the rock (whereas with 9mm and fatter you generally assume you'll probably make it up the pitch without immediate rope failure and can then fix the issues).

I've been thinking on this info for a few days and it's interesting how it kind of shines a light on the differences between USA and EU/UK caving.

Things are obviously a lot less formal here. There's really no safety/governing body for gear, ropes, etc. here that I know of, for caving. Outside of racks - which were invented by and for cavers - the rest of our gear is "borrowed" in large part from other work disciplines of climbing. PMI was birthed

Anectotally anyway, I see a strong preference for the hyper-static 'ropes' here, as they're more predictable when climbing, and offer less bounce. The consensus being that less bounce means that there's less 'sawing action' & abrasion that would happen as the rope that's touching the rock, won't be moving/abrading the sheath against the rock.

I know that sounds like apostasy to EU/UK cavers - "What, the rope is touching the rock?!?!?!" I guess we just don't let it bother us that much. If there's pretty strong contact, or especially if there's sharp areas, we'll use rope pads. But I don't think we make too big a deal about light contact with the rock.

I guess I could dig into American Caving Accidents to see if a broken rope has led to any fatalities, but I know that by & large, most vertical-related accidents/fatalities are a result of more technical problems - mistakes at rebelays, people unloading rappel devices & breaking the connecting krabs, etc...

Anyway, just thinking out loud here...



I guess as it pertains to the original question in the first post, I can see how the "differences" trickle down to rope bags as well. Our stiffer ropes don't stuff into bags as well, and are more suitable to coiling. (Which, yes, I agree, that coils suck for many reasons.)

 

[ChrisB]

The British Caving Association is a governing body only in the sense that that's the name given to the recognised national associations of all sports. It doesn't govern caving, there are no cave police. Some caves have gates, but that's usually because the landowner requires it or there are particularly vulnerable formations.

You use stiffer ropes because your philosophy is not to worry too much if they touch the rock. I think you may typically have longer, straighter pitches? If you were to use European/UK ropes and not worry about contact you would have broken ropes. I doubt you could safely rig a US cave with 8mm or 9mm rope because the anchors won't be in the right place for that style of rigging.